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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Concord, CA
    You're contractor is trying to hustle you??? It can't be!

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Well I want thank you Professionals for all the infor.have a Great ! day

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2005

    Re: Thanks for this topic!

    Originally posted by lisag
    ...the question was about the availability of freon based systems in the future.

    As the article notes, 'drop in' replacements for R-22 (example: R-407C) are expected to be widely available for use during the 30 year phase out period. Such replacements are already in widespread use in Europe and elsewhere.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Originally posted by Irascible
    You're contractor is trying to hustle you??? It can't be!
    Actually, it's rather upsetting, because this company has bee nothing but honest with me over the past several years. You begin to wonder if you can trust anyone anymore. I'm hoping it's only an aberration of this one guy and that he was mistaken. I'll find out when the lead guy comes to do the free estimate.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    May 2005


    SMACK HIM!!!

    there will always be a replacement part for your unit (at least 10 more years). all parts for a unit are pretty much universal save for a few parts. capacitors and contactors are universal. now there are almost always sales on units. look areound a little. call like 5 or more companies and have them out for an estimaite. make sure that they sell a variety of units and that they are very thorough! they better ask ???'s about hot cold spots, allergies, dryness, humidity or anything uncomfortable. they should also do a heat load calculation to give you the exact unit size for your house. follow him around and watch over his shoulder. make sure he knows you are there by asking lots of questions. he might not like it but he might get you a better prouduct if he knows you ve doneyour homework. as a service tech, i have met people, especially older folks, that i probably could have taken advantage of but thats wrong! they trust you, thats why. i want people to trust me cause i'm honest! just do your homework in case he tries anything!


  6. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    West TN
    Just skimming over Carrier and Trane's web sites
    to see what kinda promotions they have going on and
    found these....,3041,CLI1_DIV109_ETI8671_MID4141,00.html?SMSESSIO N=NO,,CLI1_DIV109_ETI8211,00.html?SMSESSION=NO
    That one just went out... June 30, 2005

    I try to keep up with promotions so I can pass it along to
    homeowners with really old units. Especially if they are planning on replacing the unit 'in the near future'
    I'd hate for someone to miss out on a promotion.
    I'm bad about having this little voice in my head saying...
    "This unit aint gonna make it through the summer."
    Most of the time the voice is right... but then again...
    there are a few units out there that have totally amazed me.
    Anyways... even though I try, I get mixed up myself.
    I just realized I was mixed up just then, I thought
    Carrier was offering $1000 back for going to the Infinity
    system. But now realize it was Trane when getting an XL16i or XL19i.
    Arghhh... its hard to keep up sometimes.

    Speaking of something hard to keep up with...
    I think its been really hard for tech's to keep up with
    the refrigerant changes lately.
    Seems like everytime I turn around, the R22 phase out plan
    has changed.
    Up until a few months ago, I thought they said 2006.
    Then thought I heard 2006 for the date they would stop
    producing units with R22
    Then thought either Carrier or Trane had set a date themselves for going to all 410 units
    For some reason, I'm thinking Carrier has already stopped producing split system heat pumps with R22. But in just checking the web site... they still offer R22 heat pumps.
    Maybe its just the ones we sell.,3041,CLI1_DIV109_ETI7960_MID3782,00.html?SMSESSIO N=NO
    And thought I heard that Tranes new package unit design coming out in 2006 will be all 410.
    I've heard 10 year timetables, 20 year timetables, and 30 year timetables for R22 phaseout.

    I imagine I'm not the only one thats been mixed up on the phase out timing as you can see by the different responses
    in this thread alone.

    If I were you, and I was serious about looking into the rebate, I'd call and talk to someone in charge.
    If you are not planning on replacing the unit, then at the very least...
    Get an estimate, go ahead and learn as much as you can now
    about what to look for and what to ask for (this web site has more info like that than you can shake a stick at),
    get everything figured out now.
    If the unit were to out when its 98 degree's outside,
    you're not gonna want to take your time and figure out what you want at the last second....
    Its sorta like shopping for a car.... it takes me a couple months of shopping before I find the one I like...
    if I were to total out my car tomorrow.. then I'd be forced
    to buy the first one that struck my fancy and I'd end up
    regretting what I got.

    If the company has been honest and done the work professionally in the past... then I'd give the tech a break and figure he got mixed up. We're not perfect all the time.... just most of the time

    If you've been skepticle of the company over the years they've serviced your equipment... then by all means get
    other estimates and find a good company now.

    Like I said... its better to have a plan worked out now
    for when you unit goes out then wait till the last minute
    and be forced to get whatever somebody offers.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Originally posted by beenthere
    I thought r22 is now set for early phase out, in 2020.

    As for a better chance of getting an experienced tech for r22, there is just too many systems out there with 2 and more pounds over charge, for that reasoning to hold water. The guy might have 30 years experience, and still over charge the system.

    To each his own.

    yes 2020 R-22 will no longer be produced, it should be noted that in 2015 only 10% of the amount that was manufactured in 1999 will be allowed.

    Seems to me as Beenthere mentioned that experience with proper practice is the key, longevity by using rule of thumb has made a mess so far. A guy who knows how to convert to saturation temps and "see" what the refrigerant is doing in the system has much more to offer regardless of the refrigerant. Most of the commercial guys, especially in refrigerantion know this because they work with so many refrigerants, the hackers know 65 suction and 220 head and cant tell sh%# from applebutter.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2004

    What constitutes an "old unit"?

    Thanks for the advice, wormy. But, how would I determine if I have a "really old unit"? Here are some details on my heat pump system:

    > Indoor Unit:
    - Original unit in attic - installed August 1986.

    > Outdoor Unit:
    - Completely replaced June 1996
    - Freon leak detected/fixed September 2002
    - Motor replaced September 2003

    > Maintenance:
    - Had maintenance contracts/bi-yearly checks since 1996
    - Units cleaned/maintained regularly
    - No problems other than those listed above

    So the indoor unit is coming up on it's 20th year and the outdoor unit is coming up on it's 10th year. During all these maintenance checks, no one has ever mentioned a potential problem happening in the near future/at all, so I'm wondering why suddenly I need to think about complete system replacement...other than this sale and the supposed "parts/system availability issues".

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Concord, CA
    You literally can't determine if it's really old because that's an entirely subjective term. One thing is for certain, twenty years is abominably ancient as far as the salesmen are concerned. And it's true that an average system isn't going to last much longer than that. But "average system" is also a funny term that can be played with. Some systems last 30 no sweat. If you have a heat pump then sure, the outdoor unit would be pretty old at 20. But in my experience the indoor units of heat pump systems readily last longer than that. The biggest reason to change them is to match the outdoor unit (IF we're talking heat pumps).

    In my opinion if your system is working well then don't think about replacement yet unless you just want to. There are benefits that include miniscule to major energy savings, less noise, better appearance that sway some people.

    And as far as your past experience with that company goes, this trade has and continues to go through sweeping changes in how the business side is run. Few larger companies have escaped the corruption. They're turning all the service techs into salesmen because they know that the service tech has the most credibility amongst all of an HVAC shop's employees. They do so to the detriment of the service tech’s technical training. The sad part is that it's psychology 101 that the best personality for a service tech is almost never the best personality for a salesman. The two are incompatible. There are a LOT of well paid service techs who are technical hacks but keep their positions precisely because they bring home the new equipment sales bacon.

    The best way to fight that is to stick with an honest technician and always request him. A company can change and its employee roster can be very inconsistent. But the character of a good technician is unaffected by that.

    Speaking of bacon: With respect to gentleman above, watch out for salesmen that focus too much on indoor air quality. They can’t do as much about it as they’d have you believe unless you’re willing to spend considerable dough AND implement behavioral changes.

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    West TN
    'old unit' depends on tech experience.

    I run across 20 yr old splits that still baffle me as to how they are managing to hold on (though I know that the effeciency is so low a new unit would be better on the light bill... even paying for itself)
    Then I run across 10 yr old package units that have
    rusted out heat exchangers and falling apart at the seams.

    Each brand, style, year, model, etc has its very own track history.

    After a while, a tech starts to see patterns in failures with various units. It gets to where you just about know what to look for before you even open the unit up.
    i.e. Carrier GS Package unit. Dirty condenser coil causes extreme high pressures. Take it apart, clean the coil, charge the unit.

    Trane Heat pump... Crankcase heater thats sometimes near impossible to replace

    Trane BYC.... holes in heat exchanger in the dimples

    York package.... dad blasted Johnston Controls ignition control module and the whole dang ignition/flame sense assembly.

    The list goes on.

    Generally what I see these days... 13 years is when I start seeing the more major repairs.

    Bottom line...
    If you are happy with your utility bills and happy with your comfort... just get quotes and prepare for if the unit fails in a major way.
    Decide now what contractor, brand, effeciency, thermostat (VisionPro seems to get the most praise here... but I havent' seen one yet... I feel all left out), allergy problems (High effeciency filters and UV Lights), variable speed blowers, 2 stage heat/cool, and find out what duct mastic is And be sure to get an extended warranty.
    Find out what is a better investment... i.e. Additional Attic insulation or higher effeciency equipment.
    If you have a big house or multilevel house on one unit...
    find out about zoning (Carrier Infinity)
    Do you have humidity issues? Growth issues? Hair loss issues? Hmmmm.... guess we can't help with the hair...
    unless you wouldnt' mind wearing a nice blue Hog Hair filter on your head.

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Irasible - some very good points...the best tech is probably the worst salesman! What is it they say? Those who can, do...those who can't, sell! (or something like that!)

    I've made an appt for the free estimate...I've had a very good experience with this company since 1996, so it may just be the tech guy was trying too hard. The "head" tech will be coming out to do the estimate, so I'll hit him up for more info and details then. I just wasn't expecting to spend thousands of dollars on something like this...there goes the new kitchen appliances!

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2004

    the mfg's are all developing new equipment to add to thier lines. the majority of equipment sold today is 10-12 SEER by far. In fact nationwide it is about 90% 10-12 SEER stuff.

    Research and devolopment is a pretty expensive venture. It is sometimes hard to justify developing new stuff that will go by the way side in only 4 years (which is only 3 to the mfg's). There is the potential for alot of wasted $ and no payback if they develop new products that use R-22. Some will because of the market but some will also make decisions on whether is is worth the money spent. Exsisitng products using R-22 and still meet minimum efficiency standards require no research so they will likley stay around.

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