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  1. #27
    Originally posted by Irascible
    You're one smart mofo Mark.

    I most agree, He nailed how my blower would work from my crude attempt to display my current wiring.

    After looking at 4 sets of wiring diagrams (t-stat, furnace, and 2 with the 16i) and reading notes, how in H#@@ does Trane expect a service tech to wire this thing up correctly?

    I've avoided mentioning this part, but here it goes, I am a EE and have my hand in designing a few control boards like this but not for the HVAC industry. Currently I work in the rail industry. Now you know why I went with a Trane...

    Mark from what youíre saying, it sounds like the wiring diagrams supplied with the 16i should be the most accurate or at least the latest? Checking this against what you said the only discrepancy I'm finding is with the jumper between Y and O in the furnace. The 16i diagram shows a jumper between R and O. I believe you said this jumper is for the Comfort-R? That being said, I would assume Comfort-R is a control function of the furnace? I'm looking at note 9 on the *UY Schematic Diagram.

    "9. OPTIONAL HUMIDSTAT IS TO BE CONNECTED BETWEEN THE "R" AND "BK". FACTORY ISNTALLED JUMPER "R" TO "BK" (BK JUMPER) ON THE CIRCUIT BOARD MUST BE CUT IF OPTIONAL HUMIDSAT IS USED. THE JUMPER MUST ALSO BE CUT WHEN APPLYING AN AIRFLOW COMMAND SIGNAL TO THE "BK" INPUT SUCH AS WITH THE VARIABLE SPEED SIGNAL-ZONE AND MULTI-ZONE SYSTEM CONTROLLERS. ON SINGLE SPEED COOLING ONLY / NON-HEAT PUMP SYSTEMS, JUMPER "Y" TO "O" FOR PROPER OPERATION OF THE DELAY PROFILES AND THE HUMIDSTAT. FOR TWO COMPRESSOR OR TWO SPEED SYSTEM, JUMPER "YLO" TO "O"."

    In my case, I assume I'm applying the airflow command signal to "BK"? If so, this note makes it sound like I should jumper Y to O for single speed cooling but in my case of 2-speed cooling it should be YLO to O. How about the R to O jumper shown in the 16i schematic, should this not be installed? Scratching my head here......

    BTY, as an engineer, we cover our back sides with the notes. I always tell people to read all the notes before they look at the pictures. To make things worse, Trane's notes are written in fine print, very hard to read. I wonder, did their lawyers help in the writing?

    Another wiring question I have. The t-stat diagram shows a factory jumper between R and RC. I assume this stays connected?

    Another problem with Traneís documentation, one of the wiring schematic for the 16i indicates a ďyellow/blackĒ wire. I believe this is actually a ďyellowĒ wire? The other schematic I have for the 16i doesnít indicate a wire color.


  2. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,914
    Ignore the "note 9", it doesn't apply to the XL16i because of the way the airflow is controlled.

    A jumper from R to O would serve the same function as a jumper from Y to O in your case. I prefere to only energize 0 on a call for cooling. Not that it matters much with straight gas heat, since it won't try to do Comfort-R for heating anyway.

    Trane really is behind on a lot of the instructions that come with the units. I asked about it recently and was told that it is one of the things that is being worked on along with the realignment of the product lines for the 13 SEER minimum next year.

    I'm fortunate to have been to almost every different residential training class, and a number of commercial classes, that Trane has offered in the DFW area of Texas in the last 5 years, so I know thier equipment very well.
    Side effect of being only a 2 man shop and being a Comfort Specialist dealer. Trane requires the company to send people to X number of training classes a year, and even comps a lot of the classes, but we only have 2 people to take them all, lol.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  3. #29
    I really want to thank everyone for their comments. I especially want to thank Mark, you are very knowledgeable and it shows. Youíve taught an EE a few things about control wiring. BTW, I now get 8 flashes on my CFM LED on low cool and humidity is back over 40%.

    Iím starting to list what I would like the contractor to do on the A/C Refrigerant side of my system. Here is my first cut at the tasks Iím going to ask him to perform. Iíve tried to put some thought into this. Most important is what Iím not asking the installer to do. I would welcome some comments and feed/back:

    1. Recover the entire refrigerant in the system. Out of curiosity, how should the compressor and condensing unit is handled to prevent further contamination after this step? Can it be isolated while the filter/drier is removed? Should nitrogen be purged through it during the entire process?

    2. Remove the filter/drier in the condensing unit and add a new external filter/drier. Iím still thinking about this one. Iím not sure this is needed and would like some feed/back and discussion about this. My concern with replacing is the need to do more brazing inside the unit and the potential to do harm. A torch inside my new beautiful 16i outside of a controlled factory setting scares me. Especially with this crew but hopefully I will get someone more qualified doing my rework. Also, I still believe in the basic philosophy, ďIf it ainít broke, donít fix itĒ. To avoid my post from getting too long, I plan on making a post in this thread on why I donít think this is needed and would welcome comments as why Iím wrong or right but I really do trust Markís opinion and for now Iím leaving this as a task to be completed.

    3. Replace the line-set; I want this done for two reasons, one, it looks like crap with a ripped up insulating cover and electrical tape is tacky (no pun intended), but secondly, because of its location, it should have been placed at least where the previous one was. Also, there are some steps in the Installerís Guide to prevent noise with-in the building. Iím sure the installer didnít follow these during the first go around and this is probably the main reason for the noise I hear inside. FYI, I looked on the data sheet for the 4TTX6036A1000A and it shows a sound level of 78 dB. This is probably about what level Iím hearing outdoors but without a sound meter we may never know. There were some general comments in this post about how quite the 16i should be but to be fair this isnít the quietest one advertised. While doing my homework before choosing this system, I noticed some of the York Affinity series units are advertised to be 9 dB quieter than this. Iím not sure at what distance these levels are measured, but I would assume ARI has a standard on this too to ensure all the advertised numbers are on an equal footing. Here comes the EE side of me, 3 dB means twice the power. Therefore, I assume on the sound side of things, a 9dB difference equates to 3 times louder. Bottom line, I think the noise level outdoors is to be expected and my concerns arenít as great here. However, wife doesnít agree so I may lose this one.

    4. Braze all joints with nitrogen purge. Iíve also done some thinking on this too. Would like to discuss if the lack of nitrogen purge during the first line-set installation is a ďrealĒ problem. I tend to think it wonít be as bad as some make it out to be but Iím defiantly no expert and would like to know more.

    5. Purge system and pressure test with dry Nitrogen to 300 PSI.

    6. With a vacuum pump, evacuate the system to below 350 microns, close off vacuum pump and ensure pressure stays below 500 microns after a minute. I assume because my system is being completely re-filled, the compressor/condenser is not isolated during this step?

    7. Fill system with R-410a using LIQUID this time. I will also insist that a new tank of R-410a be used and as discussed here, I will suggest to the contractor that he disposed of all the used tanks of R-410a he has. I will try to get the final Press/Temp numbers and ask your opinion when done.

    8. Last step and most important. Obtain the 10 year P&L warranty, either through purchase or horse trade.

    Iíll let you know what is finally decided with the installer and how it turns out.


  4. #30
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    996
    yes, please get the 10 year p / l!!! you should not hvace to pay for anything but the componets of the system. tell the mamager that you feel that you should only have to pay for the furnace and air conditioner excluding labor, lineset, wiring, etc. they did a hack job on you and that is not right. give em hell! i serious about it! and as mentioned before, tell him you want a free 10 year p / l no exceptions. see if you could get a trane rep out to supervise the repairs

    another idea is to tell them you want a brand new system installed


  5. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,914
    Originally posted by railwaydude
    1. Recover the entire refrigerant in the system. Out of curiosity, how should the compressor and condensing unit is handled to prevent further contamination after this step? Can it be isolated while the filter/drier is removed? Should nitrogen be purged through it during the entire process?
    nitrogen should be purged through while brazing a piece of pipe in place of the old factory filter drier and while brazing in the new filter drier outside the unit.

    2. Remove the filter/drier in the condensing unit and add a new external filter/drier. Iím still thinking about this one. Iím not sure this is needed and would like some feed/back and discussion about this. My concern with replacing is the need to do more brazing inside the unit and the potential to do harm. A torch inside my new beautiful 16i outside of a controlled factory setting scares me. Especially with this crew but hopefully I will get someone more qualified doing my rework. Also, I still believe in the basic philosophy, ďIf it ainít broke, donít fix itĒ. To avoid my post from getting too long, I plan on making a post in this thread on why I donít think this is needed and would welcome comments as why Iím wrong or right but I really do trust Markís opinion and for now Iím leaving this as a task to be completed.
    The filter drier needs to be replaced whenever the system is opened. From your description of how the system was installed, we already know there was some moisture present in the system, and copper oxide flakes, so the existing filter drier will already have moisture and contaminats in it.
    When replacing a factory filter drier, I put them outside of the unit, so if it needs to be changed in the future, the entire refrigerant charge doesn't have to be recoverd.

    The only reason manufacturers put filter driers inside the unit is to insure that one actually gets installed.
    Lennox doesn't put in a factory installed filter drier, but they package one with the unit that is to be field installed. I couldn't even begin to count how many Lennox systems I have found with no filter drier. Often the one shipped with the unit is still sitting in its package next to the unopened installation instructions in the bottom of the unit.

    3. Replace the line-set; I want this done for two reasons, one, it looks like crap with a ripped up insulating cover and electrical tape is tacky (no pun intended), but secondly, because of its location, it should have been placed at least where the previous one was. Also, there are some steps in the Installerís Guide to prevent noise with-in the building. Iím sure the installer didnít follow these during the first go around and this is probably the main reason for the noise I hear inside.
    Havn't seen the install, so can't comment on this. Would it even be possible to run the lineset in the same place as the old one?
    The best material to use to repair rips in the insulation is the black outdoor rated duct tape. Its like waterprof black cloth with adhesive on it. It doesn't dry up, delaminate and fall off like regular duct tape, and will handle UV light and weather. Mildly expensive though.
    If it is running down a wall outside, it should have a cover over it. I don't think the cover is required by any codes, but common sense and good taste dictate one...

    FYI, I looked on the data sheet for the 4TTX6036A1000A and it shows a sound level of 78 dB. This is probably about what level Iím hearing outdoors but without a sound meter we may never know. There were some general comments in this post about how quite the 16i should be but to be fair this isnít the quietest one advertised. While doing my homework before choosing this system, I noticed some of the York Affinity series units are advertised to be 9 dB quieter than this. Iím not sure at what distance these levels are measured, but I would assume ARI has a standard on this too to ensure all the advertised numbers are on an equal footing. Here comes the EE side of me, 3 dB means twice the power. Therefore, I assume on the sound side of things, a 9dB difference equates to 3 times louder. Bottom line, I think the noise level outdoors is to be expected and my concerns arenít as great here. However, wife doesnít agree so I may lose this one.
    dB ratings aside, the percieved "loudness" of a system is subjective, and varries by the individual. dB ratings don't distinguish what kind of noise it is, or the frequency of it. To me, the noise from the compressor and the noise from the airflow seem to be about the same on the XL16i, but it is a very quiet unit. If it is making an objectionable noise, the discharge line may be vibrating against the composite base pan. It is fairly common because the coil in the unit will shift around a little during shipment and handling during installation. It just one of those things whoever starts it up needs to check. It takes less than a minute to fix, including removing and reinstalling the access panel, if that is what is causing the noise.

    4. Braze all joints with nitrogen purge. Iíve also done some thinking on this too. Would like to discuss if the lack of nitrogen purge during the first line-set installation is a ďrealĒ problem. I tend to think it wonít be as bad as some make it out to be but Iím defiantly no expert and would like to know more.
    Best practice is to flow nitrogen while brazing, but there are tens of millions of systems out there that were installed without flowing nitrogen.
    It is a much greater issue if the lines are hard pipe with lots of fittings than it is with a soft copper lineset that was only brazed at the ends.
    Unfortunatly those of us that flow nitrogen while brazing are a very small minority in the industry, only slightly smaller of a minority than people who actually use a micron gauge.

    5. Purge system and pressure test with dry Nitrogen to 300 PSI.
    Absolutely

    6. With a vacuum pump, evacuate the system to below 350 microns, close off vacuum pump and ensure pressure stays below 500 microns after a minute. I assume because my system is being completely re-filled, the compressor/condenser is not isolated during this step?
    350 microns may not be realistic in the field for a lot of people, but it absolutely should be below 500 microns.

    7. Fill system with R-410a using LIQUID this time. I will also insist that a new tank of R-410a be used and as discussed here, I will suggest to the contractor that he disposed of all the used tanks of R-410a he has. I will try to get the final Press/Temp numbers and ask your opinion when done.
    On the inside of the controls access panel there is an envelope with 2-3 things in it. One is the "Service Facts", it has charts for the high and low side system pressures and temperatures if everything is working correctly.

    Across the bottom is the outdoor temperature, on the left of the chart is the refrigerant pressure. There are 4 lines on the chart representing different return air WB(wet bulb) temperatures.
    If everything is working correctly, you should be able to plot the outdoor temperature and the appropriate refrigerant pressure on the chart and the point the plots cross should agree with your return air WB temperature.

    8. Last step and most important. Obtain the 10 year P&L warranty, either through purchase or horse trade.
    Smart move.

    Iíll let you know what is finally decided with the installer and how it turns out.
    Please do!
    All to often, we get left hanging with no word as to how the problem was resolved.

    [Edited by mark beiser on 07-04-2005 at 02:21 PM]
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    340
    Originally posted by mark beiser
    Originally posted by railwaydude
    6. With a vacuum pump, evacuate the system to below 350 microns, close off vacuum pump and ensure pressure stays below 500 microns after a minute. I assume because my system is being completely re-filled, the compressor/condenser is not isolated during this step?
    350 microns may not be realistic in the field for a lot of people, but it absolutely should be below 500 microns.
    [/B]
    Mark, what is the problem with pulling a 350 micron vacuum? As long as your hoses aren't leaking, all it should take is a few extra minutes with a pump, right?

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    211
    This is an easy one.
    Poor installation by a bad\lazy tech
    Dame shame...
    Good Luck to you

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Burleson, Texas
    Posts
    1,741
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by railwaydude
    6. With a vacuum pump, evacuate the system to below 350 microns, close off vacuum pump and ensure pressure stays below 500 microns after a minute. I assume because my system is being completely re-filled, the compressor/condenser is not isolated during this step?



    I would bet money that the installers do not even have or have even used a micron gauge.............

  9. #35
    Had my meeting this morning and it went fairly well. The owner agreed the install wasn't good and will do the tasks recommended. He didn't even hesitate at changing the line-set again either. He actually inspected the system and found a few things I didn't notice that need to be corrected too. Seems like he really wants it done right and to get paid.

    His most senior tech is coming out in the morning to do the work. Looks like this may come to an end soon. Stand-by

  10. #36
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    996
    thats good that the guy took a look at the system and is having their top dog out there! sounds like things will be okay

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Southold.calm
    Posts
    5,441
    Railwaydude
    You have one hell of a contractor there. Willing to admit that mistakes were made and correct them. At first I would have suggested a letter to Trane about the shoddy work. But now if he follows through a new letter to Trane complementing him is in order. Please keep us informed.

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    2,633
    Ditto that thought. IF he follows through then you can't ask for much more.

  13. #39

    Wink

    The re-work was performed this morning in force. Everyone had the attitude they were going to school....lol. Actually there is a lot of truth in this. I found out the tech and owner called train yesterday to go over what I wanted them to do. They showed up pretty humble this morning. Donít need to say more. A brand-new bottle of R410a was even brought out, claimed they are disposing of all their used tanks and started informing all the guys to charge liquid.

    Thanks guys for your suggestions. I really do believe these guys want to do things right and actually seemed glad for the information.

    All the suggested steps were taken and here are the final temps and pressures as best I could get them; I had to do the conversion from relative humidity to get the indoor wet bulb.

    IDDB=80 degrees-F
    IDWB=66 degrees-F
    ODDB=86 degrees-F
    Suction Pressure = 135 PSI
    Liquid Line Pressure = 320 PSI
    Liquid Line Temp = 89.5 degrees-F
    Cooling on 2nd stage with 1060 CFM

    When I plotted on the graphs and made the -6PSI suction correction and -4 PSI liquid line correction for my evap and furnace it seemed to come out pretty close at least within the limits of +/-3 PSI for suction press and +/-10 for liquid line pressure.

    The AC has been running for a few hours now and the house is cooling down nicely. My un-official temp diff across the evap as measured in the closest register compared to the room temp was around 24 degrees F. I believe I've picked up a few degrees here from when the system was running on the vapor charge. I suspect actually having R-410a in it helps with the cooling somewhat.

    Another minor thing corrected, found the sound blanket on the scroll was partly opened and not fastened at the Velcro strap. Pressed the Velcro back together and this seems to quite the noise some. The line set noise isn't as bad either, but I think when marked corrected the control wiring, the airflows did a lot to make this better.

    All seems well to me.

    Thanks, all.

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