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  1. #14
    Originally posted by Yellow Dot
    Your new 16i was given cancer the day those hacks brought it to life.

    You never told us how you came to the decision to use this particular contractor.

    Low bid?


    Actually, not the lowest bid.

    He did the load calcs. The owner went over the installation of the system with me before hand. He spent time with me answering questions. Said he wouldn't accept payment until I'm happy with the system.

    As serious as you and others make things sound, I would assume at least the compressor needs to replaced. Should the entire condensing unit be replaced too? How about the evap and TXV?

    The problems started when the crew came out to do the install. The owner of the company hasn’t seen the install yet, nor heard the system in operation. As I said in my original post, we are doing a face to face in a few days.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,914
    Your control wiring is still not correct. The XL16i wires differantly than the instructions with the furnace indicate. The instructions with the furnace have not been updated since the XL16i came out last year.

    Y1 from the thermostat needs to go to Y in the furnace and Y1 (yellow wire) outside.

    On the control board, the jumper labeled "W14" need to be cut. Its a little loop sticking out of the control board.

    Y2 from the thermostat needs to go to BK in the furnace and Y2(yellow wire with red stripe) in the outdoor unit.

    For Comfrot-R to work, a jumper needs to be installed between Y and O in the furnace.

    B/C in the thermostat needs to be connected to B in the furnace and the blue wire in the outdoor unit. That is the 24v common, without it, the thermostat is operating on batteries only, and the backlight cant be set to stay on continuously.

    Likely the reason your compressor is noisy in first stage cooling is that you only have 50% airflow and the compressor is operating at 67% capacity. The system was designed to have 80% airflow in first stage. This is also the reason your indoor humidity levels are so low. 35% really is to low for indoor humidity. It dries your furnashings out to much, dries your skin, dries out your throat when your sleeping, causes static electicity problems, etc..

    As other have said, it is VITAL that an R-410a system be kept clean and dry, and that it is evacuated properly. If they didn't use a micron gauge, they have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how well it was evacuated.

    R-410a system MUST be liquid charged. It likely would make little difference if someone vapor charged a small amount, but if they vapor charged the entire system charge, you don't have R-410a anymore. It is something else now, with unknown saturation prssures and temperatures, and unknown system capacity.

    They need to recover the entire charge and have it disposed of, as well as disposing of the remainder of the drum of R-410a they charged the system from.

    The liquid line filter drier in the unit needs to be removed, and a new filter drier installed outside of the unit.

    The system then needs to be evacuated to below 500 microns and liquid charged with new refrigerant from a drum other than the one they vapor charged your system with before.


    Absolutely insist on the above steps.

    It is good that you still have the leverage of not having paid them yet.

    The sad thing is, Trane has the training classes available for the company to send thier people to. For some equipment, it is even required for someone from the company to have been to the training class for the equipment before the distributor will even sell it to them, so we know that they were at least exposed to the oportunity to learn something about the stuff...

    [Edited by mark beiser on 07-02-2005 at 10:53 PM]
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Gold Coast of Connecticut
    Posts
    4,547
    mark beiser
    Professional Member


    If they follow this mans advice to the letter your new system will be fine and you should pay the man as he may not be the best on the new gas, but he will learn a few things at the same time.
    Aire Serv of SW Connecticut- Gas heat, dual fuel and central a/c systems installed and serviced

  4. #17
    Originally posted by mark beiser


    Likely the reason your compressor is noisy in first stage cooling is that you only have 50% airflow and the compressor is operating at 67% capacity. The system was designed to have 80% airflow in first stage. This is also the reason your indoor humidity levels are so low. 35% really is to low for indoor humidity. It dries your furnashings out to much, dries your skin, dries out your throat when your sleeping, causes static electicity problems, etc..


    [Edited by mark beiser on 07-02-2005 at 10:53 PM]
    Thanks!!!! This makes perfect sense. What I didn't mention in my original post, I did watch the CFM LED during low cool. It only flashed 6 times for 600 CFM. I thought it should have been higher. I thought I wrote too much in my original post. I could almost write a novel over this experience.

    I'll be sure to insist on your other advice too. How about damage to compressor? Should it be replaced too?

  5. #18
    Originally posted by mark beiser


    The sad thing is, Trane has the training classes available for the company to send thier people to. For some equipment, it is even required for someone from the company to have been to the training class for the equipment before the distributor will even sell it to them, so we know that they were at least exposed to the oportunity to learn something about the stuff...

    [Edited by mark beiser on 07-02-2005 at 10:53 PM]
    I also remember talking to the owner of the company about this too. Actually, he went to the school himself. Guess he should of been out here doing my startup. I don't blame the guys doing the work. They were put in a bad situation. As Freezeking2000 said, “as he may not be the best on the new gas, but he will learn a few things at the same time”, they need more experience. The service manager did tell on the day of my install. The tech won't forget this day for sometime to come. I just wish they didn't have to learn on my system.


  6. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Zelienople, Pa
    Posts
    2,965
    Originally posted by Freezeking2000
    mark beiser
    Professional Member


    If they follow this mans advice to the letter your new system will be fine and you should pay the man as he may not be the best on the new gas, but he will learn a few things at the same time.
    What about the contamination of the oil in the compressor?
    How tall are you Private???!!!!

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    18
    I seem to be the only one doing any reading so far in this process. The techs sure haven't done much reading so far.

    Don't you hate it when you're paying the so called professionals buckets of money to do something, and you know more than they do about what they're doing?

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,914
    Originally posted by railwaydude
    How about damage to compressor? Should it be replaced too?
    It is highly unlikely that the compressor was damaged in this short of a time, so I wouldn't worry about it to much. Just make sure they do everying I mentioned in my last post.

    Did you get a 10 year parts and labor warranty with the system? If not, you should. Don't read anyting into that, I would have advised you to get the 10 year P&L warranty, even without all the trouble.

    I would also highly recommend you look into getting an electrician out to put in whole house surge protection. At least get surge protection for the HVAC equipment.

    3 weeks ago I had to replace the furnace control board, varriable speed motor module, thermostat and the 2 speed controller in the outdoor unit of an XL19i system for one of our customers. He also had a security guy replacing is security panel, and a TV repair guy to replace the board in his plasma TV, the DVD player and sterio were in the trash. I noticed several HVAC, security and appliance repair trucks in the neiborhood too.
    One of the transformers for the power supply to the area exploded and there was a big electrical surge that killed electronics in a bunch of houses in the area.
    The guy actually has 2 XL19i systems, but the breaker for the other furnace was on the other side of the panel and didn't get the surge. Most of the electronic devices surved by one side of the panel got fried though.
    A relativly small investment in quality surge protection could save you a lot of hassle, and from sweating or freezing for a day or 2.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  9. #22
    Originally posted by about2buyahouse
    I seem to be the only one doing any reading so far in this process. The techs sure haven't done much reading so far.

    Don't you hate it when you're paying the so called professionals buckets of money to do something, and you know more than they do about what they're doing?
    LOL, .well, actually, the service manager said he would want me to work for him when he left on the first day and the owner told my wife he wished he could hire me when she talked to him too the following day, but he admitted he couldn't afford me because I would be to meticulous.

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,914
    Originally posted by Yellow Dot
    What about the contamination of the oil in the compressor?
    While that is a concern, since it is a new system with new refrigerant lines, and there was purging and pressure testing with nitrogen, I doubt that more moisture got into the system than the filter drier could handle.
    They need to put in a quality 16 cubic inch liquid line filter drier when they come back out and fix the system though. A Sporlan C-163-S should do the trick.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  11. #24
    Originally posted by mark beiser


    Did you get a 10 year parts and labor warranty with the system? If not, you should. Don't read anyting into that, I would have advised you to get the 10 year P&L warranty, even without all the trouble.

    I still have time to sign up for this. Before the install, I would have said no, normally extended warranties aren't a good bargain. However, I must admit in my case now, this is a no-brainer

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    2,633
    You're one smart mofo Mark. But I agree with Yellow Dot's paranoia for this reason alone:
    Originally posted by railwaydude
    Basic Steps Observed While Installing Line Set and starting A/C system:

    -Brazed the line set w/out nitro purge
    No amount of evacuation and recharging is going to get the butt load of ash that's now sitting in the oil out of the oil. I suppose they could pull the compressor, drain the oil and recharge the oil. But based on their past performance that would be asking for trouble IMO.

    You're being too nice railway. The installers are at least partly to blame. It doesn't matter if it's a Trane 16i or a Goodman builder model. When you braze you purge with nitrogen, period. They knew that but didn't care. If you're going to compel them to put in a new lineset, go for the condenser too. If he resists then tell him you'll take your story and documentation to Trane. If your local Trane wholesaler is like ours, they'll want to know that one of their contractors is having Cletus and Bubba install one of their premier units. Of course that might put a strain on the relationship. But you're no stranger to strain now.

    Good story BTW. I like the mix of abject horror and double entendres.

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    340
    Originally posted by railwaydude
    I'm looking for some sound resonable technical advice that is fair to both sides.
    If the system wasn't installed and charged per Trane's instructions, then it is a defective installation. Whether or not the contamination is dangerous in the long term is a matter for Trane to decide. If the manufacturer doesn't believe it is a problem then they (through the dealer) should be willing to provide you with a complimentary extended parts & labor warranty on the system.

    I would first advise the dealer of my concern, and then if necessary suggest that the two of you jointly contact Trane and have a factory representative meet with you to review the installation and make a decision on how to proceed.

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