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  1. #92
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    If you only want one person to comment,I suggest you use email,instead of a public forum.


  2. #93
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
    Posts
    16,008
    Originally posted by dash
    If you only want one person to comment,I suggest you use email,instead of a public forum.
    Thanks, I will take that advise.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

    "Never let success go to your head, and never let failure go to your heart". - Unknown

  3. #94
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    626
    Dash--trying to get the HVAC industry out of the "dark ages" is a full time job, isn't it?

  4. #95
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
    Posts
    16,008
    Originally posted by uktra
    Dash--trying to get the HVAC industry out of the "dark ages" is a full time job, isn't it?
    Do you really think posts like this help you integrity? With comments like this I am now personally even more skeptical about your product, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt by checking out one of these homes, I hope your sale pitch has a better attitude with the public than here because I will be glad to print your posts and let the new prospective HO read the kind of attitudes the folks that design these homes have.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

    "Never let success go to your head, and never let failure go to your heart". - Unknown

  5. #96
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    626
    Mrbillpro-I sincerely apologize for my weak attempt at humor, but let me tell you about a phone call I just had from a friend. She had seven HVAC companies come out to her home to replace an operating old gas boiler, with a new higher efficiency unit. Of the seven companies that came she received only 3 written bids. I helped improve her home many years ago and did a load analysis of 62k btu/h. All of the companies wanted to put in 100 to 120 k btu/h units and no one did a load analysis.

    I can tell you that people are becoming more intellegent about decisions of this nature, and that is why I have work. People paying big money for new homes want energy effeciency, good air quality and comfort. The homes you need to visit proves this because they sell faster and have fewer callbacks than code built homes. You can question my integrity all you want to, that is your privilege. I only am concerned with what my clients think.

  6. #97
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    4H: Hot, Humid Houston H.O.
    Posts
    3,304

    The OP is forgotten by now

    It would not be bad if people would address the question the way Panama asked in his original post. Some of these valid points which have surfaced, would have been appropriate on the first page. The ways in which human behavior might frustrate the goals of Manual J sizing, is a valid one. If the average homeowner needs over-capacity some way, that is good for the rest of us to know. If the average installer gets something wrong in a way that reduces capacity, that is good for (at least us homeowners) to know. And it would be great to learn about the things with an existing house vs. new construction, which make it trickier to get OK performance.

    In my own case (one 1989 house) I think I am collecting empirical evidence that more capacity is needed than Manual J says, and the reason could very well be the ductwork in this house. Or other things that I don't know so far. The existing size is 7.0 tons, a whole-house Manual J is 4.5-5.0. One HVAC guy prescribed 9.0 tons, he is not a hack but rather an old fashioned craftsman, but his main method appeared to be sizing airflow room-by-room based on experience, and then calculating what tonnage is appropriate to that total airflow. My experiments with duty cycle appear to tell me one unit can be downsized by 0.5-1.0 ton, the other unit probably not. In this case I think it will be prudent to pay up for a pro to do the room-by-room Manual J before committing to a new size. The best results won't be obtained by a DIY method, I am sure you will agree.

    Best of luck all -- P.Student

    [Edited by perpetual_student on 07-01-2005 at 11:28 AM]

  7. #98
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    4H: Hot, Humid Houston H.O.
    Posts
    3,304

    Future info from MrBill, looking forward to it

    If MrBillPro ever gets to visit one of these houses in question, and can tell us why or how Manual J fails to be comfortable, I will regard that as excellent information. I know he's pissed at what I said and that is regrettable. We need to work with peoples' skills as they have, any clue that is contradictory to the Manual J plan would be fine. Maybe the customers of MrBillPro tend to have children running in and out, or want fast cool-down even with the compromises in humidity control etc. which are supposed to happen when you oversize. If anyone can oversize without these disadvantages (perhaps the way Airman designs) it is interesting to hear all the details.


    Best of luck all -- P.Student

    [Edited by perpetual_student on 07-01-2005 at 11:27 AM]

  8. #99
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    4H: Hot, Humid Houston H.O.
    Posts
    3,304

    Sorry for the double posting

    Apologies to the board for the duplicate posting. The board software is giving me inappropriate messages, this is a case where the error message itself is wrong. At this time I cannot succeed in deleting my own message, or editing it.

    Regards -- P.Student

    P.S. And then I *could* edit my posts. Computers, aren't they wonderful?

    [Edited by perpetual_student on 07-01-2005 at 11:29 AM]

  9. #100
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Madison, WI/Cape Coral, FL
    Posts
    6,468
    It's safe to bet the readers of this subject is down to the hard core posters.
    The better the home is designed/built, the lower the sensible, the higher the latent heat ratio needed to provide comfort. There are also are many hours of the year with no sensible cooling load and significant latent load. Also the loads from the occupants vary, single occupant to a "party". In the a/c industry, we hide behind "it's oversized" when people complain about high humidity. Perfectly sized sensible/latent loads for a typical home varies from 100% sensible/0% latent to 0%sensible/100% latent. If we size the a/c properly, we can handle this load right? Here's how far we have come. We offer 70%S/30%L simple single speed, maybe twecked to 65%/30% @ 50%RH. Nexted for a premium price and complexity, we 2 speed the a/c. Max latent also overcooling to remove more moisture.

    Soon to be release is partial reheat with a 20% S/80% L meaning overcooling at a lower rate. The reheat feature will be added to the 2 speed a/c with an additional level of complexity and cost. Adding an additional le complex, extremely expensive and energy inefficient, none of these systems are able to provide 0% S/ 100% L. The "gold standard" for humidity control is a simple adequately sized a/c for the max sensible load and high efficiency whole house dehumidifier. This combination provides <50%RH with a 90^F-70^F inside t-stat settings without any cooling load. With normal margins, the retail is 2-3 thousand more than a/c only. The mechanics are as simple as the a/c. Thanks for the future comments. TB

  10. #101
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    626
    Teddy Bear--I agree with the gist of what you are saying. I reccommend whole house dehumidiyers in humid climates. But you can control humidity also by how you build the home, and how you mechanically ventilate the home. Many of the Building America homes in Houston use this approach. A good source of cost comparisons of different methods is at http://www.buildingscience.com

  11. #102
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    Originally posted by teddy bear
    It's safe to bet the readers of this subject is down to the hard core posters.
    The better the home is designed/built, the lower the sensible, the higher the latent heat ratio needed to provide comfort. There are also are many hours of the year with no sensible cooling load and significant latent load. Also the loads from the occupants vary, single occupant to a "party". In the a/c industry, we hide behind "it's oversized" when people complain about high humidity. Perfectly sized sensible/latent loads for a typical home varies from 100% sensible/0% latent to 0%sensible/100% latent. If we size the a/c properly, we can handle this load right? Here's how far we have come. We offer 70%S/30%L simple single speed, maybe twecked to 65%/30% @ 50%RH. Nexted for a premium price and complexity, we 2 speed the a/c. Max latent also overcooling to remove more moisture.

    Soon to be release is partial reheat with a 20% S/80% L meaning overcooling at a lower rate. The reheat feature will be added to the 2 speed a/c with an additional level of complexity and cost. Adding an additional le complex, extremely expensive and energy inefficient, none of these systems are able to provide 0% S/ 100% L. The "gold standard" for humidity control is a simple adequately sized a/c for the max sensible load and high efficiency whole house dehumidifier. This combination provides <50%RH with a 90^F-70^F inside t-stat settings without any cooling load. With normal margins, the retail is 2-3 thousand more than a/c only. The mechanics are as simple as the a/c. Thanks for the future comments. TB

    1.A/C with a variable speed fan ,is worth the money without any dehum controls.

    2.High SEER is worth the money in hot climates.

    3.The expense of adding the controls to dehum. after getting 1 and 2,is very small.

    They are not overly complex,we have guys just out of tech school that can install and trouble shoot these system.

    My home has one and the humidity never goes above 55%.

    Teddy how many of these systems have you installed ,designed, or serviced,to make your claim ,they are complicated and don't dehumifiy well enough?


  12. #103
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Thibodaux, LA
    Posts
    1,170
    Teddy are you a salesman for santefe dehumidifiers? I feel most of your post are repetitive.
    "Football Season again finally"

  13. #104
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    2,683



    1.A/C with a variable speed fan ,is worth the money without any dehum controls.

    2.High SEER is worth the money in hot climates.

    3.The expense of adding the controls to dehum. after getting 1 and 2,is very small.

    They are not overly complex,we have guys just out of tech school that can install and trouble shoot these system.

    My home has one and the humidity never goes above 55%.

    Teddy how many of these systems have you installed ,designed, or serviced,to make your claim ,they are complicated and don't dehumifiy well enough?

    [/B][/QUOTE]

    I dont live Florida or Texas, but we have had record high temps and humidity. On many days higher temps than Florida and my RH% has not gone above the low 40's yet.

    I use a VS furnace and utilize DEHUM feature, works like a dream.

    DEHUM features are not meant to remove moisture from a home that has water issues like a leaky basement. But controlling humidity under normal weather patterns works well.

    As far a being difficult to troubleshoot all I can say is...HUH?




    Live each day like it is your last, for one day you will be right!

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