Page 7 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678910 LastLast
Results 79 to 91 of 122
  1. #79
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    626
    Trane--How many homes have you designed that you guaranteed HVAC monthly costs, humidity levels, and temps no more than 3 degrees room to room?

  2. #80
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    midwest
    Posts
    2,868
    Dash, it depends on who is deciding if its undersized? I agree that if all of the home owners are happy with the design temps you use your doing what your customers want and manual J will work for you. He asked why manual J has failed and I tried to point out some reasons. I also never doubted your installation skills but do Uktra's.

  3. #81
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    Note that I said new construction,and allowed that errors acn and have been made.Existing are more difficult ,so you have to be careful and if you are not sure error on the side of caution.

    Garbage in = garbage out,but when the input is proper I've never had a problem.


    Who decides if it's undersized?The design documents,does it maintain X° in the home,at X° outdoors,yes or no,period.Yes we have had people say it runs too long,doesn't handle 20 people at parties,etc, etc..That is not the question in this thread.



    [Edited by dash on 06-30-2005 at 11:32 PM]

  4. #82
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    midwest
    Posts
    2,868
    Originally posted by uktra
    Trane--How many homes have you designed that you guaranteed HVAC monthly costs, humidity levels, and temps no more than 3 degrees room to room?
    None, My customers don't require it. But I do guarantee they will be happy with their new system. I can also guarantee they will be cool on the fourth of July and warm on Jan first. Is that also in your guarantee? How many on this site size all the residental equipment themselves (ALL) now how many have had to follow specs that a engineer had came up with on a commercial job and new it wouldn't work? I put in 91 split systems in 1994 that were sized by a engineer using manual J and told them before we started (in december and it was cold) that they would not work. They waited until 13 were installed before they believed me and paid to send all of them back and exchange them for bigger equipment. They also paid me to take out the first 13 and I might add it was your tax dollars paying for all this.

  5. #83
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    midwest
    Posts
    2,868
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by dash
    [B]Note that I said new construction,and allowed that errors acn and have been made.Existing are more difficult ,so you have to be careful and if you are not sure error on the side of caution.

    Garbage in = garbage out,but when the input is proper I've never had a problem.


    Who decides if it's undersized?The design documents,does it maintain X° in the home,at X° outdoors,yes or no,period.Yes we have had people say it runs too long,doesn't handle 20 people at parties,etc, etc..That is not the question in this thread.

    What was the question, something about a fake house right? Look at what he started.


  6. #84
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    626
    Trane--thats a great story, but it doesn't prove manual J is wrong--it only proves the engineers screwed up. The reason I am so confident in manual J is that I also design the thermal envelope of the home with the ducts inside conditioned space. This frees up the 25% over capacity designed into Manual J for things like leaky ducts and leaky homes.

    Customer might not demand guaranteed HVAC monthly cost, humidity levels, and even temperatures in the home, but Building America homes provide this at NO EXTRA COST and poeple want it. Sales figures have proven it.

    [Edited by uktra on 06-30-2005 at 11:56 PM]

  7. #85
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    midwest
    Posts
    2,868
    Originally posted by uktra
    Trane--thats a great story, but it doesn't prove manual J is wrong--it only proves the engineers screwed up. The reason I am so confident in manual J is that I also design the thermal envelope of the home with the ducts inside conditioned space. This frees up the 25% over capacity designed into Manual J for things like leaky ducts and leaky homes.
    Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that the new houses you design can be sized with manual J and be conditioned with smaller equipment than most would think. These are not the average home and the average home owners. I was only trying to say that manual J has to be used with common sense. Got to go but its been interesting.

  8. #86
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    626
    No one said manual J doesn't need to be used with common sense, or not done correctly. Manual J will work on average homes and average people if done correctly. I have a problem with people like mrbillpro and classical who say manual J won't work in Houston. It will and does.

  9. #87
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
    Posts
    15,505
    Originally posted by uktra
    I have a problem with people like mrbillpro and classical who say manual J won't work in Houston. It will and does.
    Go back and re-read these posts I never said it "would not work" and I also said you need to use some common sense I am sorry either you misread my posts or did not quite understand.

    This is what I said below:

    Heat load, Manual J,manual D whatever heat load you use to calc. you will be warm in a home.

    the hell with all that manual J and D in Houston you will not be comfortable with a 3.5 ton on 5200 sq .ft.

    By the way did old J&D put common sense out of business? if so were all in deep po-po.




    mrbillpro:
    Well, in my personal opinion being in the a/c business for over 27 years in Houston trust me you will never cool a 5,200 SF home in Houston, Tx. with 3.5 tons of air unless it's 3.5 tons of ice you have poured on top of your home. Heat load, Manual J,manual D whatever heat load you use to calc. you will be warm in a home that big here with that little a/c I can promise you that.


    mrbillpro:
    I don't have read anything you install a 3.5 ton in Houston on 5200 sq .ft. and unless you building it in a cave you won't be comfortable, and I could care less what really anyone thinks I just want the address when you get er" done so I can go by and check out how happy the customer is, that is called proof the hell with all that manual J and D in Houston you will not be comfortable with a 3.5 ton on 5200 sq .ft. unless you have no glass and use R-600 insulation and your inside a cave I work around this everyday in Houston but hey you know better than me go for it!


    mrbillpro:
    If I have bought a 5200 sq. ft. home my guess would be, either a lot of occupants or a lot of parties call it abnormal conditions may be perfectly normal to some and you brought up a good point as to why you can't totally rely on old J & D.

    By the way did old J&D put common sense out of business? if so were all in deep po-po.

    “Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.” –Albert Einstein
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards.”-Vernon Law

  10. #88
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    Aren't "you won't be comfortabe" and "won't work" the same thing?


    What has Man D ,have to do with this?Are you saying Houston requires "rule of thumb" duct design or some special duct design ,other then Man. J?

  11. #89
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    626
    Oh now you claim it will work? which is it you can't have it both ways.

  12. #90
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
    Posts
    15,505
    Originally posted by dash
    Aren't "you won't be comfortabe" and "won't work" the same thing?


    What has Man D ,have to do with this?Are you saying Houston requires "rule of thumb" duct design or some special duct design ,other then Man. J?
    You know dash this argument is none of you dam business, why are you in this if you have a beef with me come to Houston and we can work our problems out otherwise let me and ultra work this out.


    Aren't "you won't be comfortabe" and "won't work" the same thing?

    and no this is not the same thing in my books.
    “Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.” –Albert Einstein
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards.”-Vernon Law

  13. #91
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
    Posts
    15,505
    ultra, I am trying to work with you here to learn if about your product and like I said before, I will get out to one of these homes to check it out soon and if I see it does work an apology will be in order and if I get a lot of bad feedback that will be posted also so can we be men about it until I get a chance to check it out in the real world? if not helping you reputation or mine by being behinds about it, and now we have others involved in "OUR" disagreement which is "not" helping anything but kids will be kids.
    “Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.” –Albert Einstein
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards.”-Vernon Law

Page 7 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678910 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Comfortech Show Promo Image

Related Forums

Plumbing Talks | Contractor Magazine
Forums | Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine
Comfortech365 Virtual Event