Home Warranty dilemma

[drog2002]

I have a disconnect between what my home warranty says it needs to reimburse me for my external 3.0 ton unit and what the technician is willing to write regarding the condition of the unit before it was replaced. I will try and keep this short: My home warranty's techs failed to come out and service my home unit, and they authorized me to get my own tech to come out and see about it. The internal temp of the house was 89 degrees, and the fans were running but no progress was being made. The inside filter was clean, the coils were not frozen up, the outside unit was free of debris, and according to the tech that came out, the system was almost 100% charged with freon. This was the 4th time (once a year) I had called this home warranty to fix this same unit, and each year they filled the compressor with freon, and it worked again for another year. But not this time - the last time, they repaired a leak, and left another leak unrepaired, saying that it was in an area that couldn't be repaired (near the valve). When the temp went up in the house again, I just assumed it was calling for freon. Anyway, the tech I was able to get out to the house is from a highly reputed company in our area, and he said that the unit was just worn out and needed to be replaced. He reluctantly put this in writing, knowing I needed it for my home warranty to authorize the replacement. I have no doubt that this was a true statement, but "the unit (compressor/condenser) is just not able to keep up due to age and inefficiency; unit is beyond all reasonable repair" is not technical enough of an explanation for the home warranty people's books. They want the exact failure reasons for each of the major assemblies in the exterior AHU. I went round and round with them explaining how if all the parts are worn out, and you replace one, then the old one next to it will fail, and so on. No dice. I even contacted a consumer lawyer, and he says the explanation given should be enough for the insurance co. My question to all is: What can be said in a technically complete way to adequately explain this situation? I am an engineer, but this is not my field (ME).
My attorney can get the tech a signed release of liability so that he and his company will not be at risk from lawsuits for answering the questions. I read in one of these internet reference sites that there is a standard guide that determines whether to recommend replacement or if repairs are warranted. I have no idea where to find this guide, but it might be the missing piece of the puzzle. Any help at all will be appreciated, because it is not possible to actually dissect this unit anymore.

[dnt]

By some peoples rules a unit should never be replaced. It is always going to be cheaper to repair. I guess if I were carrying your home warranty policy you would be repairing it also LOL. I have never seen a written policy for repair or replacement usually the homeowner decides when he compares the cost of repair to the cost of replacement. In your case by buying the home warranty you have placed that decision in warranty companies hands. Probably the only way to get a replacement unit is by getting a quote as they asking for listing each deficiency and what it cost to repair it. I really don't think a good tech would have much trouble getting up a list if the unit is indeed in bad shape as you say, it could possibly exceed the price of new unit if this one is indeed falling apart. Keep in mind you are dealing with a idiot in a cubicle 5000 miles away you are the one that has to do all the leg work gather all the information etc. Me I just avoid home warranty programs and self insure. Not worth the hassle I have enough people trying to run my life without me having to pay someone to do it LOL. Good Luck

[NormChris]

With the highly limited information provided on this system there is simply no way that the warranty company will or should authorize a system replacement.

"Worn out" system is not sufficient information. I would want to know what exactly is the current cause for no cooling.

I would want to know what the outside ambient temperature was, the supply and return temperatures, the condenser subcooling, the lowside superheat, the highside and lowside pressures, the discharge line temp, compressor amperage and such.

The technician should provide the documentation in writing of all measurements taken not just his opinion.

That's my opinion

[bb]

I agree with Norm. If it could be proven that due to valve wear or other problems with the system, that it could not maintain the btu gain at a certain temperature then that may be grounds for replacement. The only way to measure this is by pressures, temperatures and a heat load calculation on the home. Other factors to be considered are insulation in attic, infiltration of structure's envelope, duct losses and gains just to name a few.

Just my opinion.

[NormChris]

I have done home warranty work in the past and I always provided the home warranty people with far more information than they asked for.

I never once was rejected when I told them what needed to be done to rectify the problem and they paid up.

[trane]

Originally posted by NormChris


With the highly limited information provided on this system there is simply no way that the warranty company will or should authorize a system replacement.

"Worn out" system is not sufficient information. I would want to know what exactly is the current cause for no cooling.

I would want to know what the outside ambient temperature was, the supply and return temperatures, the condenser subcooling, the lowside superheat, the highside and lowside pressures, the discharge line temp, compressor amperage and such.

The technician should provide the documentation in writing of all measurements taken not just his opinion.

That's my opinion

Thats what I was thinking when I read his post. I don't ever remember having a A/C that wouldn't cool because it was worn out.

[appltech1]

Bottom line is The warranty service is to "Help You In The High Cost Of Repairs". Sometimes because the cost is high on a certain repair, they will opt out and supply a new unit.

Why do people always want to get something free just because they have a warranty. Where in that policy does it say it will replace it free of charge if it doesnt perform to your liking.

well good luck to ya.
PS. worn out is sales talk

[Black Adder]

What kind of a home warranty do you have? Do warranties cover "worn out" equipment? I would think if it is still under manufacturers warranty then they would cover it. Does home warranty cover all repairs? If a tap is worn out do they replace it? I don't understand a lot about home warranty. We don't have it around here except on new homes and I would not expect a diagnosis of "worn out" to work for that.

[hvac student_4063]

This was the 4th time (once a year) I had called this home warranty to fix this same unit, and each year they filled the compressor with freon, and it worked again for another year. But not this time - the last time, they repaired a leak, and left another leak unrepaired, saying that it was in an area that couldn't be repaired (near the valve).
=========================
The warranty companies I work with would all replace the entire condensing unit if there is a non-repairable leak, especially if the system is more than a few years old. You've been a "Gas and Go" for the past 4 years, and I bet you that suddenly undiscovered leak has been there for the same amount of time. Get them to give you a new unit. If they can't fix it, they need to replace it.

PS Even if the warranty company dosen't pay for it, get a new evaporator coil put in at the same time.

[Senior Tech]

Home warranty companies make my blood boil....

But you need to have the technician write a detailed description of problems/repairs needed. I'm not in the home warranty business but if I were, "It's worn out" is not detailed enough information to make a decision on what course of action to take.
I think people in general mis-understand exactly what a home warranty is and what the coverage actually takes care of...including myself when I first dealt with them.
Remember this, even if they choose to replace the unit, at least the ones I have dealt with, will not pay the entire cost of replacement, as a matter of fact the last one I convinced them to replace they only covered approximately 1/6 of the entire cost....some warranty huh?

[dec]

Yep .... I have never realy seen any home warranty companies with a warranty worth a darn. They want the money for the warranty but then throw every excuse in the world why the owe you nothing. I dont know who its worse for ....the tech or the homeowner. Their both getting screwed

[Irascible]

I'll give you one that's worth a damn: First American Home Buyers Protection. I did work for them last year. Their coverage is incredibly liberal. Customers routinely DID get something for nothing. That is to say, they covered all sorts of things that should not have. Too many homeowners don't get the concept of preexisting condition. And too many don't understand that just because it's old doesn't mean they should get a new one.

You've got two problems drog. First off the typical home warranty contractor is a butt crack mechanic. I know. I was following behind my fellow First American contractors all the time. Don't mistake my enthusiasm for their coverage policies with enthusiasm for their contractors. The odds are you had four visits because none of the four contractors were on the ball. But unfortunately your problems with those contractors don’t entitle you to a new unit.

Your other problem is the so called "reputable" contractor. Others on this forum may chide me for jumping to conclusions. But I can smell a consolidator from a mile away. If you don't know what that means, it simply means that MANY reputable contractors have one goal in mind: sell, sell, sell. Anything they can do to push you into a new unit they'll do it. The utterly bogus diagnosis of "worn out" is a classic example of meaningless analysis designed to sell you a new unit. Your tech most certainly should have been reluctant to put it in writing.

I appreciate your frustration with the home warranty company. Their contractors are often less than desirable. But I'm not sure what grounds you have to get a lawyer involved unless you just want to bully the home warranty company. Mind you... if they bend from the bullying I'm all for it. I thoroughly dislike most home warranty companies.

[classical]

Any Home warranty company will pay to repair or replace your equipment if it is properly installed to code and manufacturers requirements. It must also be properly maintained. The key here is properly installed and properly maintained.
If the system is properly installed and maintained you won't need a warranty company because the system will most likely last for a very long time and provide excellent service comfort and efficiency.
The problem is people don't think about maintenance and won't pay to have systems properly installed. Therefore the equipment fails and everybody wants it replaced for free. Why should the warranty company or anyone take responsibility for cheaply improperly installed or maintained equipment?

[drog2002]

I hear what you guys are saying here, and I appreciate ALL your comments. This unit was 16 years old, and was the original new home installation. Whether or not it was the best installation or best unit for the job, I do not know. I bought it with the house 4 years ago, and it was the primary reason I kept this Home Warranty for so long. It looked and sounded like it was on its last leg, but the warranty made me feel safer from a potentially huge cost. The company was First American, so I feel a little better hearing they are supposed to be one of the better ones for the home owners. The main reason I had this replaced before the company authorized the charges is that they put me off for 3 days after saying "it should be no problem", and being in Texas at the beginning of the hot season, I knew I had better get the replacement scheduled. I would have done this even if they only covered repair costs or a replacement with a cheaper unit with negotiated labor. The guys that came out before were obviously not doing me any favors by putting a band-aid on something that obviously needed big time help. I should have done all this research then, but my dad is an HVAC certified tech. He always taught me to keep the unit clean and watch out for weird sounds, leaks, etc. I was leaving it to the 'professional' techs that came out to do the best thing for me, and that was a mistake. Nonetheless, the reason the lawyer said it was not unreasonable to proceed was that the Home Warranty company did not act with appropriate speed in what they knew was a health hazard condition. My daughter has type I diabetes, and she has her insulin strapped on the outside of her body. It can't get hot or it stops working, and that is bad all over the place. I explained all this, and the situation with getting an appt. for installation being difficult to schedule. After being out of AC for 5 days, I really had no good choice except replacement, regardless of whether it could be repaired or not. The Home Warranty did finally send out someone to give a second opinion a WEEK later! If they had been able to get anyone out to even look at the unit before it was replaced, that would have been fine. They only had 2 contractors they "work with" in the DFW area where I live. This is not good, considering there are hundreds of AC companies and independent contractors in the area. So, if nothing else, they were not performing the service I paid for in sending out competent people in a reasonable time. I did take pictures of the unit, and I have all the receipts from the past service I have received, and just now my installation tech from the new unit called in. I am signing a release of liability for him and his company in this home warranty issue so that his company will allow him to further delineate the problems he found in the old system. He said he enjoys this site from time to time, and that several of the posters are extremely knowledgeable. So, I did pay for good installation and a good unit this time! Hopefully this unit will last at least 16 years too. I did not want something for nothing, but I paid over $2400 for this warranty over the last 4 years from the same company, and I deserved better than the treatment I received. Maybe they should recruit more good guys in this area so this does not happen again? It won't be me next time though - I have had enough of them, and now I have a great unit and a good company backing it up too! In answer to another question, this home warranty covers: "The company's liability is limited to failure of systems due to normal wear and tear. Cosmetic defects are not covered." So the contract itself contradicts their statement that being worn out is not a valid reason for the system's failure. We will get something detailing all the problems this system had, and see if the company keeps its word this time (now that the CEO of the company has given it). If not, you may see me in Small Claims court on this one. Up until now, I thought this was a pretty good home warranty company. I guess that when the cost is under $500 the problem is not big enough to risk losing a good customer.

Again, Thanks for all the information and comments.

[Edited by drog2002 on 06-29-2005 at 02:52 PM]

[rjb7112]

I do some work for a warranty company and follow the big reputable companies, just today I had a second opinion on a unit that was bad tripping breaker. connections at the breaker were loose . tightened and watched for half an hour called customer after full day of running and its fine. hmm makes you wonder.

[rjb7112]

not too mention everyone wants a new unit, why would the guy waste his time even writing a itemized description his company will not get the sale , you have to look at it from both sides.

[Senior Tech]

Originally posted by rjb7112
not too mention everyone wants a new unit, why would the guy waste his time even writing a itemized description his company will not get the sale , you have to look at it from both sides.

Perhaps he would do it because he has an ounce of integrity...
Waste his time? I thought the customer purchased our time and knowledge. Shouldn't he at least get a detailed description of system condition?

[Irascible]

Originally posted by drog2002
They only had 2 contractors they "work with" in the DFW area where I live.

Yep. They've got relatively liberal coverage policies. But the idiots decided to get cheap and won't pay enough to get a full compliment of contractors. That's why I said I did work for them last year. What they were paying me was waaay below market. But the greedy biatches wanted me to lower my prices even more and I said no.

Originally posted by drog2002
In answer to another question, this home warranty covers: "The company's liability is limited to failure of systems due to normal wear and tear. Cosmetic defects are not covered." So the contract itself contradicts their statement that being worn out is not a valid reason for the system's failure.

OMG. I love it when customers see only what they want to. No offense. I am sympathetic to your situation. And YES you got very bad service. But spare me the lack of critical thinking. "worn out" is NOT a failure. When you're 65 and you see the doctor for an abdominal pain, are you going to except a diagnosis of "You're worn out buddy."? HA! (Though if President Hillary socializes health care, you may very well have to accept such a diagnosis. ) They cover failures due to normal wear and tear. What's the failure? "worn out" is not a failure. It's a subjective opinion. Failures can be defined by objective analysis that includes numerous readings, etc. And failures are ALL repairable. It's only when they decide that it's not worth repairing all the defects that they replace.

You get litigious if you want. But you need to know that you're suing over bad service and NOT because you were denied coverage you should have gotten. In your particular situation the bad service may be reason enough by itself. But I get the feeling that you're going for more than that. Your new contractor better watch himself.

[Edited by Irascible on 06-30-2005 at 01:04 AM]

[drog2002]

Well, I have no "lack of critical thinking", but I do have a lack of patience. I am fully aware of what "failure" means. My last job was to write the maintenance manuals for a major military contract delineating fault locate procedures for avionics components. My problem with the Home Warranty companies is that they have instilled such paranoia in the service businesses and technicians that you NEED a lawyer to write something like a release of liability to get the technical analysis you would usually expect as standard procedure! No, I am not in favor of suing for every little thing, but if I send this detailed analysis (list of problems/failures and their causes), and they still do not authorize ANY payment at all, yes I will have something filed on principle. If you have ever been involved in any court proceeding you know that the ones who win are usually the attorneys! It would cost more than $2000 for either of us to show up in court, and the whole unit was less than that. Besides, I would have to take off work, and that is not part of recoverable expenses, even if you win! This is another example of the rich getting richer, and the little guy has no say or can't afford to stand up for himself without taking a huge financial hit. I am hoping for an appropriate response from the Home Warranty company, but if not I will have to weigh the expense to see what I can afford to do financially. If I did win in court, the most I could hope for would be the cost I have already paid for the unit, and my attorney's fees (which they get up front). So I would definitely be out any money I would have gotten paid for time off work. Don't be so quick to shout "litigious". It is a catch phrase these days, and should only be used for people who file frivalous or unnecessary lawsuits, and I am definitely not one of those people. IMHO, the legal system is only good for keeping the honest people honest anyway. Anyone with money has the power to sway it their direction, and anyone without it had better keep their heads down. So, my contractor has nothing to fear from me. Heck, it took me 4 days to work up the nerve to call and even ask for the detailed list! I do not know what history the company has with warranty companies, and I certainly do not want my problems with them to affect my tech or his company. That is another thing I have discussed with the lawyer, and he says that since they have not dealt directly with the HW company, they will not have any legal consequence in this matter from them. I have a great warranty on my new unit, and that is good enough for me.

[Irascible]

Litigious a catch phrase? I didn't know I was so trendy.

What you wrote all sounds entirely reasonable. But THIS statement is straight out of left field.

Originally posted by drog2002
My problem with the Home Warranty companies is that they have instilled such paranoia in the service businesses and technicians that you NEED a lawyer to write something like a release of liability to get the technical analysis you would usually expect as standard procedure!

That's wrong on so many levels that I don't know where to begin. If you're trying to avoid litigation you back yourself with lots of specific readings, not fluffy BS. Regardless of what the situation ANY good tech will give a specific and understandable diagnosis on his paperwork. What you said basically amounts to the idea that you must hire a lawyer to get good service, which is silly of course.

Home warranty companies are generally loathed and looked down upon by real tradesmen. The idea that they're feared... sheesh. I've been in the trade for ten years and literally have never heard that before.

One of my points earlier to you was that not only are you getting shafted (in terms of service) by the home warranty company contractors, but your new contractor has his problems too. I remain thoroughly convinced of that.

Good luck.