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  1. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    84
    My installer slowed the blower speed to 400 and now my rh is 54-58% at t-stat of 76, which is an improvement. I haven't been able to convince him that a jumper from Ylo to O needs to be installed. Perhaps I should show him this website. The ductwork corrections haven't been done yet. I'm trying to remain patient. He claims they're very busy with no cooling calls.
    Thanks to the info from this site and other links I have more questions. My new condenser (2TTZ9060A100B) has a 65' line set to an upstairs attic coil (TXH054A4HPAF) and furnace (TDD100R9V5K4). What size should the suction line be? I believe it is 7/8". Also, is this condenser only compatible with r-22? My installer asked me which I wanted and I told him I didn't have any preference. He then told me something about line size and using r-410a since it was a long line set or something to that effect. I may have misunderstood him. What specifically dictates line size?

  2. #41
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    The Trane Guys will be along soon,to answer.

  3. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,915
    Originally posted by tmoss
    My installer slowed the blower speed to 400 and now my rh is 54-58% at t-stat of 76, which is an improvement. I haven't been able to convince him that a jumper from Ylo to O needs to be installed. Perhaps I should show him this website.
    The Comfort-R blower operation will not work without the jumper between Ylo and O, period.

    Without the jumper, the blower will run at 50% for one minute, then ramp up to 100% untill the call for cooling ends.
    With the jumper in place, the blower will run at 50% for 1 minute, then ramp up to 80% for 7.5 minutes, then ramp up to 100% untill the call for cooling ends.
    You will have better humidity control with Comfort-R enabled properly.

    I don't know wich part of DFW you are in, but both the tech reps for the Dallas area and the one for the Fort Worth area are available to explain it to him. James Howard is the tech rep for the Fort Worth area, and even published a laminated card with color diagrams detailing how to wire the system.

    The ductwork corrections haven't been done yet. I'm trying to remain patient. He claims they're very busy with no cooling calls.
    It is not possible for your system to work correctly untill the ductwork is corrected.

    Thanks to the info from this site and other links I have more questions. My new condenser (2TTZ9060A100B) has a 65' line set to an upstairs attic coil (TXH054A4HPAF) and furnace (TDD100R9V5K4).
    Nothing wrong with that matchup, so long as a TXV was installed on that coil.
    I personally don't like the TDD downflow/horizontal furnaces because the blower is harder to work on, and it makes it harder to install a high efficiency air cleaner.
    I much prefere the TUD upflow/horizontal furnace, but that is just a personal preference.

    What size should the suction line be? I believe it is 7/8". Also, is this condenser only compatible with r-22? My installer asked me which I wanted and I told him I didn't have any preference. He then told me something about line size and using r-410a since it was a long line set or something to that effect.
    The suction line on that system should be 1 1/8"
    With what your refrigerant line length likely works out to in terms of equivalent length, you are likely loosing more than 2000 btuh of capacity, and are operating a little below the rated 16 SEER efficiency of that system matchup.

    The XL19i only uses R-22 refrigerant, so you likely misunderstood about the R-410a bit. Though if you had gotten an XL16i, it uses R-410a and would use a 7/8" suction line.

    I may have misunderstood him. What specifically dictates line size?
    Pressure loss dictates line size. The suction line needs to be big enough that the pressure drop from one end of it to the other is minimal. A smaller line will have an increased pressure drop, causing lower system capacity and efficiency.
    You don't want the line to be to big though, because the refrigerant vapor needs to have enough velocity to carry oil back to the compressor.

    R-410a uses a smaller suction line mainly to keep the velocity of the refrigerant high for oil return. The oil used with R-410a doesn't mix with the refrigerant as well as the oil does with R-22.
    The higher pressures and velocity, and lower density, of R-410a vapor allows the use of smaller lines without as much pressure drop as there would be with R-22.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Tyler TX
    Posts
    676
    mark beiser

    Finally an informative post in this thread.

    My hats off to all you guys that only do perfect jobs or walk away. Sometimes a customer for one reason or another cannot do everything they should or could and his guy likely caters to these customers. I do many times as well. There is not much use in doing a man d if the customers tells you they can not do anything about it at the time. It is dependant on the contractor to inform the customer and make reasonable judgement about what the system will do with whats there.

    Have you considered buying a dehumidifier for the time being or until the the system repairs made. Even after the repairs are made you may find that using it will allow you to set the stat higher and possibly save a few bucks on your electric bill.
    HVAC Contractor, Tyler Texas.

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    84
    Mark,
    Who would be the Trane rep for Denton? Should I get this installer to replace the suction line with the proper size?
    I paid a small fortune for a high end unit. Am I expecting too much from this dealer to do things right? We were looking at getting the 14i originally. I think that is where the 410a refrigerant and line size discussion came from. But since we went with the 19i I would think he would make sure his installers use the right line size. I suppose losing 4% or so in btu's is moot if the ductwork isn't exactly right. However, I hired this company to take care of all of this and do it right. If this setup is only capable of 16 seer does Trane get the 19 rating from perfect laboratory testing conditons? I'm just Joe Public. How would I know that a system advertised as a 19 seer is really only 16 seer? Finally, where should this metering valve be located? The discharge into the coil? Thanks for the all the info. If it weren't for this site I'd be an ignorant and happy Trane customer. Instead I'm beginning to feel like I've been fleeced by a local dealer!

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,915
    Considdering the ductwork issues, and the fact that the system is grossly oversized, I think the suction line size is probably of little real concern at this point.

    The "19 SEER" of the XL19i system is only acheavable with some equipment matchups in the 2.5 and 3 ton ranges. As is the case with all manufacturers systems, the maximum achievable SEER drops off in the 4 and 5 ton ranges.
    IMO, it was your dealers responsibility to make you aware of what the actual SEER of the system is, and it is dishonest to not make it known. With the oversizing and the poor duct system, the actual installed SEER of the system is actually significantly lower than 16 SEER though.

    I don't know who the rep is for the Denton area is, probably one of the Dallas people since your installer likely gets his equipment in Carolton.

    The txv should be screwed into a fitting at the inlet to the evaperator coil. The smaller uninsulated copper line goes into it.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    84
    Well, there is a txv. Since this is a 5 ton currently set at 400 cfm the ductwork should be sized for 2000 cfm, right? And if the unit is only calling for 3 tons of cooling 80-90% of the time and the existing ductwork can handle 1200 cfm then maybe the inefficiency isn't too bad? I'm trying to be an optimist. I haven't decided how long to give this dealer to effect the modifications he thinks I need. I'll fix the ductwork myself if it comes to that. Thanks again for the info.

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Dallas TX
    Posts
    2,216
    tmoss we just spoke on the phone and although I think you should call Trane and get their assistance I would say to you that you have several problems I would be suspicious over such as actual load requirements, duct sizing, wiring, and what the actual load of your zone is. My email address is in my profile if I am not in the office when you call. I would be more than happy to lend a hand and helping you out.

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Dallas TX
    Posts
    2,216
    1 1/8 and 3/8 are the only acceptable line sizes for that system. Just talked to the dallas FSR and 7/8 lines arent even an option. even at 50' and 10 foot of that being lift 7/8ths lines are not an option.

  10. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,915
    Swat, who is your tech rep in Dallas? I still have Leon Crisp on my contact sheet, but he retired like 2-3 years ago, lol.
    Maybe I should ask for an updated list.

    I miss old Leon, he used to concession coils and stuff to me without asking to many questions. My Fort Worth area rep asks to many questions, so I don't try to slip any 6 year old coils by him.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Dallas TX
    Posts
    2,216
    Lol Well Rusty Reeves took Leon's spot but Rusty went back to commercial service recently and they actually have 2 for us here in Dallas. The other is Jim Elliot who I like and have dealt with in the past. Nice guy. The other new Dallas guy who is being trained by your question asker, lol, I am not familiar with but I bet you come fall I will sit in on a class or 2 and see if he is any good. They are keeping him out of the fire for now though. In 2 more years they said they may add another one.

  12. #51
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,915
    Since the new Dallas guy is being trained by James Howard, I wonder if he will spend 15 minutes of every traning class, regardless of what the class is about, telling us that bypass dampers are evil, and not to even call him if we have a problem with a system that a zone system other than Trane's, and a bypass damper? lol
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  13. #52
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Dallas TX
    Posts
    2,216
    Lol yeah I got to hear a lot of that this spring. I think we got the point already. New training schedule is out too. Making plans already to send the new guys. Did you know Maria is no longer there? I found that to be a surprise. I really liked her. Have you slowed down this summer BTW we are still getting our fair share but it seems like things have slowed a little.

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