Super Seal? Should I?

[jambrose]

I maintain hvac units at a 250+ unit apartment complex. Most of the equipment consists of 20 year old Arcoair brand R-22 split systems, some with cap tubes and some with TXV's.
In recent years some of the evaporators have developed "micro leaks" and the unit requires recharging a couple of times during the summer.
Would this SuperSeal stuff I see advertised be a good candidate to try?

[Shophound]

Short answer: no

Long answer: noooooooooooooooooooo



I'm with the crowd that chants the mantra: "nothing inside a refrigeration system but refrigerant and compressor oil".

Twenty year old evaps that leak, even a little, likely have other issues as well, such as drain pans on the verge of rusting out and/or air flow restrictions due to years of accumulated dirt. As you probably know, tenants aren't all that great about changing filters regularly.

I would press management to start budgeting for evap replacements rather than doing band-aids to old stuff. Is this the typical apartment arrangement of condenser coil of whatever brand coupled to a First Company air handler in a furdown ceiling in the bathroom?

[hvacguy1075]

no replace the leaking coils

[ct2]

Do a search on super seal on this site and read some of the past articals . Especially what it does to your equipment

[beenthere]

NO NO NO.


If you have to add gas acouple of times a year, it isn't a micro leak either.

Replace the coils.

[j-bill]

would never use it, the same reason you don't put fix a flat in your tires ,it trashes them,you don't get something for nothing.whatever the claim is.

[billygoat22]

micro leaks? How many microns diameter are the holes?

They should definately (already for years) be setting aside money for replacements.

[deep vac]

I also believe that only refrigerant and oil should be circulating in a refrigeration system.
But eventually every system gets to a point where you are left with only one solution. And that is complete replacement.
The refrigerant sealant method gives you an alternative procedure which allows the customer a choice.
I've seen this personally in quite a few applications and the bottom line is that you extend the life of the unit and spare the environment from unnecessary release of refrigerant.
When it comes to leaks the combination of electronic and fluoresant dye is the most efficient method of finding 98% of the leaks.
Too many units out there are leaking and they are not getting repaired, just topped off annually and that just isn't right!

[a\c don]

If you have gotten 20 years use out of Arcoaire equiptment you've done very well.

Start changing out systems, they are overdue.

[deep vac]

The answer to the question concerning micron holes are, holes which are so small that you would need a high power microscope to see it.
A human hair is about 600 micron in diameter and we should be able to find those. Micron pores below 300 are very difficult to find but still are possible if you have a good electronic refrigerant detector accompanied by Dye/Uv light detection. When you start to approach 150 microns and down these tend to be intermittent and can have periods which range from minutes, hours to days where the leak is not occurring. Various metallic/contaminate particles including oil can display sealing characteristics.
Formicary corrosion is a microscopic porosity. The porosity is characteristic of tunnels which are similar to an ants nest pattern and they occur deep within the wall of the pipe horizontally. These tend to be difficult to find because of their size and can occur anywhere in the system. In some cases this type of corrosion has been taking place even before you have installed the system.

[tinknocker service tech]

no way
if the units need to be charged couple times a season fix the leak or replace the system

[deep vac]

In reply to your message tinknocker service,
I absolutely agree that if the unit needs to be charged a couple times a season fix the leak or replace the system. Besides you’re bypassing the environmental laws that govern the release of refrigerants to the atmosphere when you are charging a system without a complete repair being implemented.
When a unit becomes so deteriorated that leaks are continually occurring it is time to say good-bye to that component or unit that is failing.

[Irascible]

Originally posted by deep vac
Besides you’re bypassing the environmental laws that govern the release of refrigerants to the atmosphere when you are charging a system without a complete repair being implemented.

Actually no. But except for that little slip I do appreciate your pragmatism deep vac. The never ending chorus of "buy, buy, buy" may actually be the best advice in this case. But apartment owners are notoriously cheap mofos. The odds of them being willing to plan the replacement of 250 units is next to zero. Ten years from now the vast majority of those 20 year old units will still be there.

If they were willing to sign a document assuming liability for anything that goes wrong and if they wanted to try Super Seal then I'd give it a shot on a test system to see how it does over the summer. Of course that's purely hypothetical. Not many apartment owners are willing to pay my rates.

[deep vac]

Irascible,
This is true, but unfortunately this mentality apartment owners may have, is also seen in larger arenas. We have commercial and industrial systems releasing large amounts simply because of the cost incurred to facilitate a full repair is not budgeted in.
You and I know that in the case of larger systems the loss of efficiency, reliability and internal damage to system components is usually higher than the actual repair to bring the unit back to normal operations.
In these times of increasing competition every tool should be brought to the table.
The right tool for the right job and the knowledge combined with common sense to choose which ones should be utilized and at what time.


[Edited by deep vac on 06-26-2005 at 05:55 AM]

[Irascible]

I was thinking apartment units. But if you're dealing with leakers that have over 50 pounds of refrigerant then be careful. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that your personal license and wealth (not just your employer's) are in jeopardy if you're knowingly breaking EPA rules.

Speaking of tools, this stuff here always impressed me more than Super Seal: http://www.ssrintl.com/ I don't know how Super Seal works. But the SSR supposedly reacts with moisture. To prevent internal clogs they have a procedure to deal with any moisture before you add the SSR. Super Seal just drops in without any prep. If Super Seal reacts with moisture as well then I could see how it would muck up contaminated systems.

[duc dowg]

i wouldnt use it

[deep vac]

Irascible,
The best way to remove moisture from a system is by mechanical action. Most drying agents just provide a masking characteristic and quite possibly will break down over time forming aggressive compounds causing future degradation of internal components.
So far the most efficient tool is the liquid line dryer.
I don't see enough liquid line dyers being utilized.
The zeolite solid core design does an excellent job, and this way you can minimize the amount of chemical additives in the system if you truly want to dry up a system. Whether you use a sealant or not you should be cleaning up the refrigerant for the sake of extending the life and providing optimum performance.
But in saying all this I still hold to “only refrigerant and oil in an operating refrigeration system”. As you all well know that some oils being used today require special attention to maintaining low moisture ppm.Another good reason to look at installing liquid line dryers on units which have undergone repair or simply do not have one.
I like to use all conventional methods of repair first and then only after this has been totally exhausted then would I approach a refrigerant sealant.
Ninety eight percent of the time convention repair methods are the answer.
I don’t think that sealants should ever be used to bypass proven repair methods.Its a last resort!