Other Contractors notice change in customers

[xe1000]

Its been crazy the last few weeks, I have a very good reputation, do quality work, and take care of my regulars, but lately whats up. Lost 6 condenser changeouts in last few weeks. People wont wait if a/c is down, there starting to call around instead. Ive been doing this for 17 years, been on my own about 9 years, just seeing alot of this and ignorant h.o.'s too. One guy says yeesterday that I was out at his moms condo and condemned unit 16 years old, says my price is a litlle high, asks how much I buy the h.p. for and how much I will make, he then says so you must be making over a grand for a days work he call a friend (he works for crane co. as a manager0 I say would you go into a resteraunt and ask how much they paid for the booze, and the steak, he says I just might I have Big Balls! See ya! Another one friend of the family not really close even, his condenser is gone and I give him a price $475 cheaper than I normally would do, he says well I can get the condenser on E-Bay for $$$$ how much will you pay, and how much you making off me. Then do work for guy owns car dealership, he is buying his son a office townhouse (sons 25 years old starting own business) one heat pump gone, after I finish call old man says I forgot my check book, says he will go home to get it, I say never mind its 90 deg. out dont have time to wait, hes says he wants me to replacenever sends check for service call or dep. like promised 3-weeks ago. I just venting, but what the hell is going on, I dont even think I want to stay in business anymore if this is the way its going to be. Those a just a few stories, could tell more. Like I said too, Ive been on my own awhile, and never ran into any of this. You other self employeds going thru it.

[AAone]

Get used to it . I am a one man operation myself and know exactly what you are goin through. I am going on vacation for 2 weeks (leaving next Thurs) and have about 6k billed out right now that is over 60 days past due. I hustled to finish those jobs so that I would have some cash put back for when I come back from vacation. Service work from now on is C.O.D. unless other arrangements have been made.

[hoozdis]

...Ive learned about getting paid is that the ones that intend on paying you will bring the subject up and wont let you out the door without a check or credit card. The customers that wait on you to bring up the subject and then want to make arrangements to pay usually never will

[old yeller]

Originally posted by hoozdis
...Ive learned about getting paid is that the ones that intend on paying you will bring the subject up and wont let you out the door without a check or credit card. The customers that wait on you to bring up the subject and then want to make arrangements to pay usually never will

I'm an HO, but don't shoot me. I chose my guy by his competence. I didn't even shop his price.

We are out there, but I am afraid for you that we are getting rare.

Too many people are getting addicted to cheap "import" labor from contractors, not realizing that in their house the HVAC system is by far the single most complicated part of the entire building and requires a heck of a lot of knowledge to do properly. Puny egos are also a problem with people thinking their contractor shouldn't make more than them... oddballs. I would respect a guy that said directly "thats a very personal question. I don't ask my customers how much they make I would hope they treated me with mutual respect".

Good luck to you guys... I'm rootin for ya.

[maintenanceguy]

I'm a maintenance manager and I hire alot of contractors.

I do shop price but it's not the most important thing by far. I dont want to be gouged (because I work for a public entity, that's pretty common pratice) but I can't have hacks working for me either. I've got a couple of dependable companies that do great work that I use almost exclusively.

The most important factor in choosing a contractor IMO is communication. Do I get a call when they're going to be late, do they call me promptly with a quote on repairs, If I've got a problem or question, do I have to wait days for an answer or call them 5 times to remind them or do they call me back the same day?

I have enough projects behind me that I know what's a reasonable price and what's not and I've learned that the lowest bidder is never the best price. If you're one of the good contractors out there, there are big busineese and organizations that need good dependable contractors every day. And being a little guy is fine.

I have big, big projects I'd never consider asking a small guy to bid on but I also have lots of service work, small installs, and other stuff that I'd rather deal with a one or two man shop because the process is so much easier for me to talk right with the boss. And lots of these projects are either emergencies or small enough that I don't have to get competetive bids. So my favorite contractors get the work automatically. And they should, they became my favorites by being the best.

Go see the maintenance manager at some big companies, introduce yourself, explain why you're stopping buy. Lots of us have a hard time finding good contractors or are frustrated with the guys we're using. I've met several of my regular contractors that way and it's been a great relationship for both of us. I get great service when I need it and they get a lot of work from me at pretty good prices. The good customers are out there if you're a good contractor.

[Senior Tech]

They wanna know your profit?....lil nosy, yes. But if they gotta know ask them if they have time to look at what all your costs are, vehicle, insurance, office supplies, uniforms, etc...and explain that in the end you hope to make 10 cents on the dollar if your lucky enough to do the job and have no snafus that eat or exceed the few dollars your going to profit. And when they say they can buy equipment cheaper, ask them what they're buying with it...there is a lot more to it than just purchasing a box...heck if they wanna buy a box sell it to them at 20% over cost and you stand to make more dropping it off the tailgate than you do installing it and maintaining it...then again you'd just have to go back and straighten the mess out after they attempt to do it themself...wow, what a vicious cycle we must endure to sometimes make a few dollars...

[hoozdis]

...for the nice comment. Well I do make a profit but Im not on track to be a millionaire. With my profit I pay salaries, insurance, operating cost and overhead, advertising, and plenty of other stuff only to be left with liabilities and warranties. Oh, did I mention the fact that this is hard, hot and sweaty work?

[phosgene]

the worst are the HO's that start with "I was looking on the internet" all of a sudden they are an expert on pricing, equipment etc. anyone who mentions ebay, just start heading for your van because the gouging and aggravation will not be worth the miniscule profit.

[millerman]

Interesting post. First off, city state and county type jobs are given to the lowest bidder period. I make our installers collect when the job is done. For the customers that try to leave its quite simple, stop the job and do the paperwork before they leave or, tell them you will be back to finish the job when they return.
We all encounter the new companies that will bid the job 500$ lower than the lowest bidder they come and go almost with the weather cycle. E-bay customers are asking for trouble and usually get what they ask for. Have you heard of the guy that bought a 3-ton unit for his home and could'nt figure out why it had 3 hot wires?
My advice, do what you do, recognize the people that just want free service and walk away. There is plenty of work if you know how to find it. Do quality work, alway's pull permits and stand behind your work. If your in this trade to become a millionare your in the wrong business. Remember the saying, I have been in this trade for 5 years and am now a millionare, problem is I started as a multi-millionare. Good luck

[operator]

had a guy ask me what I pay for parts and I said thats not information you need to know, you need to know what it cost you.

he was a deli counter with premade pasta dishes, I asked if costs him $8 for the materials in those, then I fired him

we seem to be the only trade that gets haggled, no one questions their car mechanic, altenator cost x $$'s, ok, put it in. cond fan motor costs x, Why SO MUCH, you must be getting rich, your a crook

[west_seth]

I am seeing a general shift in people's morales, values, and ability to tell the truth at all levels. Period. It seems like we are in the me me me age. If it does not benefit me then screw you. Very sad and very wrong. I think it boils down to greed and more greed. Of course I can not cateorgize everyone because I know there are many fine people who have retained values.

In Georgia the G.C. does not have to hold a license but the professional trades people do. Most G.C.s in Ga. are crooks. They will bankrupt in a heartbeat and start over with another name, shift assets etc. Slippery. This gives HO's a bad feeling because they link the contractors to the G.C. Which is wrong. Most of the G.C.s here will save every nickel they can to make more money for themselves. This, unfortunately, brings down the honest and reliable trades people.

The last time I had two HPs installed here is what happened to me:

Unit #1- Working but 18 years old, a Goodman, falling apart but I got my dollars worth. Wanted to replace. Called around and got quotes from low end to high end. Landed on a local company (two man operation) and felt really good about the perceived quality they would provide. No issues, no problems, works great. And I was not shopping price but wanted to shop the entire package. Installed by the owners son.

Three weeks later unit #2 failed - Called the same HVAC company and the owners son came back out to see me. Gave me a quote I gave him the job. No shopping around.

Install day. Owner's son in HVAC school for upgrade to his credentials. Owner older man, seemed okay. Installer in attic - piss poor attitude- everything was wrong for him. He moaned and complained about the two spot lights in the attic. I had added those to illuminate the attic years ago because the single 60 watt bulb was not enough light. Biatch biatch biatch. He had a very nice work area with 2x6s and plywood to SIT on comfortably. Did this when house was built.

Paid them and that was it. Then I started having problems with Unit #2. Called owner he biatched at me. My son bidded the job too low we lost money blah blah blah. Why did you not inspect our work in the attic blah blah blah.

I found in the attic tucked away in the insulation various metal doors and componets from the old HVAC. Guy was too lazy to take it outside. He left gaping holes in the metal fittings etc etc.

Owners son comes out fixes the issues. I told him he would have the chance to install unit #3 in sun room. Just needed a couple months to get over the expense.

Unit #2 leaking profusely from a PVC joint not sealed properly. Discolored ceiling. Stuff happens. I called owners son and asked him to please come out and repair the drain. He tried to tell me how to do it on the phone. I realize drain was done wrong thanks to this board. And I said while you are here lets finalize a date/time for unit #3 install. He said I will call you back in 5 minutes. Never did, never came out. Thanks to this board I re-did (properly) the drain line with a trap. Works great.

So will they get unit #3. No way.

Now is this indiciative of everyone in HVAC no no no. But I a can guarantee you I would never give this company a reference based on the OWNER's piss poor attitude. You see he sets the tone for HIS employees.

Good luck. Keep being honest. Bid the jobs, let them go to ebay.

[stevio]

I do believe the trend is that consumers are becoming more versed in what they are purchasing and are trying (either honestly or dishonestly) to save money. I have received 4 quotes for new heat pumps but had one salesman in particular that refused to sell me anything until the middle of the summer (we have added on to our house and he said he would not be able to determine what additional size if any I would need until the hottest part of the summer (We live in Jacksonville). So, I have quotes from 4 companies around town but I appreciated the guys honesty and will go with him no matter what.

I do agree that it is rude of costumers to demand to know the profit that one is making but considering that overall cost of a HVAC system that could run in the high thousands, most are probably looking at the cost as if it were a car. I don't think anyone on this board would go into a dealership without knowing what the car's invoice is that they want to buy. We do have an ebay generation or at least an internet generation so people are doing more research about what they buy. For example, I'm planning on putting an aluminum fence in my back yard for our two children. I called a few companies around town to give me an estimate and I was shocked by the cost of them. I was quoted $5500 and $6000 where I was hoping to spend no more than $4000. I did some research and found an online company that would sell me the fence and all parts for $3500. Now, I know the company will make a profit off of me and I can only assume that the fence company would be able to get fencing supplies for less than what I could get it for so I'm not sure if they could justify that much of a markup. I'm figuring I could hire 4 guys at $200 each for a day to come over and help me set the fence up. So, I'm up to $4300 in total cost. I believe everyone has to eat but I'm not giving my money away as I have worked as hard as everyone else here to earn what I make.

However, I don't compare that too HVAC. I realize the complexity of the job and I want my job done as well as possible so I'm not going to find the cheapest product out there and the cheapest person to get the job done. I want the best and am willing to pay for the best.

[xe1000]

See whats happening, can tell by replies too, everybody wants to make as much as possible, and people get jealous when someone is making good $$$$$. Examples, I went to school 2-years recieved an enigineering degree (actual hvac design) I put 4-years in trade to relly know what Iam doing, get Ma. Ref. Lic. at the time you need 2-years in trade, 200hrs. electric code an take an exam thru state. Know you take a person here in Ma. with a nursing Associates Degree (right out of college) they start at $20-$25/hr. ( and there still dont reallly know whats going on they only had like 6-months part time thru school so there not saving lives), then when working get there RN lic. here in Ma. $45/hr. Also my dentist fixed 4 teeth of mine, no root canal but in tough shape, built them up, 45mins. a tooth $1,200.00 (what abouthe mark-up on that! $15 worth of filling!) and I took a month to pay him he charged me $60 in interest charge! Talk to a kid 16 years old at Sears, working on a Sat. I say that stinks you have to work Sat. he says, Oh! I make a minium of $400 on aSat. One more put an addition on $62,000 30'x30' just the shell foundation, framing, doors, and windows, and vinyl , materials, $10,000-$13,000 so $50,000 for 3-weeks work come on. Thats Boston prices, service calls her $100/hr. What it cames down too is that some people think were the guys that couldnt do anything else in life like years ago, so we went to Vocational School (May day they called OP Shop) but the guys in our trade are worth a lot more, some of the most inventive, some old time refer. guys I know that retired will forget more than I will ever learn, could make anything work. Also in closing, the guys that push paper, like 2 guys I now that work for the biggest health insurance co. around, $2,500 a week, not CEO'S either, been they have been there for a few years, that makes me crazy!

[phosgene]

a real estate agent who sells a $400K house makes $8000 whether it sells the day the house goes on the market or a year later, he doesn't even haveto have the listing. If he does have the listing and sells it $16,000 is his/hers. A 6 month course and a new suit is all it takes.

Give me a break.

10 years crawling through attics, crawl spaces, mouse sh*t, heat stroke, opthomologist, back pain and we get questioned for making $80 bucks on a return visit with a blower motor that resides in a 22" crawl.

[xe1000]

One call I went on the guy agreed, to replace heat pump says I have a good rep. he shakes my hand and says go ahead for me to call with the concrete pad size (hes going to have poured) hes says hell pay me the $125.00 service call in with the install one check, that was a week ago, Iam driving by there on my way to store, I thought I saw new h.p. I turn around sure enough brand new Carrier (builders model) sitting on new pad, so he stiffed me the service call, and I ordered the unit have to bring that back also. I will call in am, and ask him when does he want me to do change out, when he tells me he had it done Ill ask for my $$$$$$, and then tell him his hand shake, and bullsh*t, hes a typical car salesman, doesnt pay me its the principal, Ill take him to small claims, and tell everyone I know, especially my 2000 customers when I service there units to stay away from him! This is what I mean, I think we are getting into a society thats all for themselves and gets satisfaction from screwing other people for the sake of a few bucks, I used to until 6-months ago do a job, price it no down payment either on a hand shake, my word means eveything, This continues Iam going to change my mind real quick, snake!

[browntigerus]

What do you expect?

Bushes sends jobs overseas, screwing middle class, and benefiting few CEOs.

You thought this trend will not impact you?

It looks like repukes want too class society: CEOs & walmart employees. And good luck getting $2k proffit from WMT employee.

[lit'l cat]

XE 1000

The more I read this post, the more I feel a need to respond.

Yes, I am a homeowner. Yes I do research on the internet.
(especially for such a huge purchase as an HVAC system)

All I want is an honest HVAC CO. who knows what they're doing & takes pride in their work BUT who wont try & sell me a mercedes of a system that I dont need & cannot afford.

Is price the most imp - of course not. But not alot of homeowners have unlimited $. (personally I havent had a raise in 5 years but all my other XP's sure go up)

Dont judge a homeowner you've never met by your past experiences. I pay my mechanic when I pick up my car, I pay my electrician when He finishes the job. Likewise I expect to pay My HVAC company the same way. BUT I dont expect shoddy work or having to pay for a return visit b/c the problem wasnt fixed in the 1st place

Originally posted by phosgene

10 years crawling through attics, crawl spaces, mouse sh*t, heat stroke, opthomologist, back pain and we get questioned for making $80 bucks on a return visit with a blower motor that resides in a 22" crawl.

(note: return visit)


Personally, I dont have time to look for a new company / shop price for every repair that my system needs. I want to pick an HVAC Co. to install my new system, do maint checks each season, & be there to fix any problems. In short I want the same HVAC Co for as long as I live here.

Short story, a few yrs ago, a gas station (i knew the service Mgr.) told me $900 for entire new exhaust system. (93 Mazda). After talking to my dad, decided for 2nd opinion & The Muffler shop on Horsepen RD (for all you Richmond folk) Told me no, they can weld on the proper piece for $90 no need to replace entire system)

Moral of story, Since then, this shop does all my car work. YES I do pay probably $10-15 more per oil change than I could using a coupon BUT, I know the work is done right, they wont rip me off, & they stand behind their work. Plus, they always tell me if I dont need a service I ask for. Not to mention they answer all my question reguardless of how dumb it may sound to them.

I want an HVAC company like this. Hey XE 1000, want to move to Richmond

[operator]

Originally posted by lit'l cat

Short story, a few yrs ago, a gas station (i knew the service Mgr.) told me $900 for entire new exhaust system. (93 Mazda). After talking to my dad, decided for 2nd opinion & The Muffler shop on Horsepen RD (for all you Richmond folk) Told me no, they can weld on the proper piece for $90 no need to replace entire system)

I dont kow your situation but I've seen this a number of times.

It could have been a shifty shop or the first could have seen something the other guys werent looking for. the first may have seen the whole system was crapping out and it was better to replace the whole thing instead of a bubble gum fix and have you keep coming back.

But like I said, I dont know these shops

[operator]

Originally posted by stevio

I'm planning on putting an aluminum fence in my back yard for our two children. I called a few companies around town to give me an estimate and I was shocked by the cost of them. I was quoted $5500 and $6000 where I was hoping to spend no more than $4000. I did some research and found an online company that would sell me the fence and all parts for $3500. Now, I know the company will make a profit off of me and I can only assume that the fence company would be able to get fencing supplies for less than what I could get it for so I'm not sure if they could justify that much of a markup. I'm figuring I could hire 4 guys at $200 each for a day to come over and help me set the fence up. So, I'm up to $4300 in total cost.

However, I don't compare that too HVAC.

were the first companies installing the fence? using their own equipment? using 3ft concrete not 1 for setting?

like hvac, you arent paying just for the equipment installed and install time, there is insurance, equipment to do the job, advertising, .....there are always costs that we have to pay that ho's dont see, know or care about, it doesnt matter the job

[lit'l cat]

Operator,

Difference is: 1st shop (gas/service station) Service Mgr, who I knew, thought she cd make a buck off me, that I didnt know any better (which was true). 2nd shop was honest. (In VA we have yearly state inspection of our vehicles). If they didnt pass my exhaust system per code, they would lose their license.

Again, you think I was only looking for a cheaper price, when in fact all I wanted was a 2nd opinion & found an honest shop. (Which seems harder & harder to find)

(P.S. 2nd shop does custom exhaust work & race car work therfore I didnt have any idea they would be cheaper)

My point, while you think most homeowners only care about price, it seems to me most HVAC contractors only care about how much they can sell you by playing on the homeowners ignorance of HVAC systems (ie just replace system instead of finding the problem)

Yes this observation is very generalized, but then again so were your observations in your last 2 posts