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  1. #14
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Sarasota. Fl
    Posts
    1,301
    Originally posted by jeffw_00
    Thanks Miami Mike, this is great stuff

    1) Variable speed blower - does this mean the system (or the stat) controls the speed (my current system has a 3 speed blower, I can set the system-off fan speed to low or medium, it's always high when the compressor is running)

    2) what is the difference between R-410 and R-22 (i assume these are refrigerants)

    thanks! i'm learning
    /j
    Use the "search" function at the top of the page for info about VS motors and R-410.

    There will be enough info to keep you reading all night.

    Here is a link to help you decide on a particular SEER.

    http://www.trane.com/Residential/Get...cySavings.aspx

    Good luck.
    It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.

    ~Albert Camus

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    906
    hey thanks - you guys have been great so far - much appreciated
    /j

  3. #16
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Sarasota. Fl
    Posts
    1,301
    Here is a thread about 410 and R-22.....it has some good "links" in it.

    http://www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthr...threadid=73898

    Like I said....the search function is your friend.

    Good luck.
    It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.

    ~Albert Camus

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    906
    First contractor came today

    1) recommended Goodman as most reliable (said the locak York distributor was in bad straits)

    2) Said you don't get a variable-speed-fan without 2 speed compressor, the combination of which he said was a 60% premium I didn't need to spend

    3) Recommended a UV light to get rid of pollen, etc...

    Does this all make sense? I was wondering about #2.

    thanks!
    /j

  5. #18
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Sarasota. Fl
    Posts
    1,301
    Originally posted by jeffw_00
    First contractor came today

    1) recommended Goodman as most reliable (said the locak York distributor was in bad straits)

    2) Said you don't get a variable-speed-fan without 2 speed compressor, the combination of which he said was a 60% premium I didn't need to spend

    3) Recommended a UV light to get rid of pollen, etc...

    Does this all make sense? I was wondering about #2.

    thanks!
    /j

    Keep searching.

    Goodman, UV lights and "no need" for a variable speed blower?

    I would find someone else.
    It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.

    ~Albert Camus

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    68,797
    Keep looking, he doesn't understand VS blowers.

    You can get a VS air handler for single stage, or 2 stage a/c's.

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  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    4H: Hot, Humid Houston H.O.
    Posts
    3,304

    I suggest SEER contains fakery

    Miami Mike said:

    >>Here is a link to help you decide on a particular SEER.
    >>http://www.trane.com/Residential/GettingStarted/EfficiencySavings.aspx

    IMO this link is not nearly as good as most of what Miami Mike says. Trane here is claiming that SEER rating is proportional to energy use in the home, and I don't think anyone can demonstrate that to be true.

    One reason is SEER is a laboratory measurement taken under conditions way different from the climate in Miami, S.Texas, or almost anywhere else. The mfgs knock themselves out to score high on the SEER test because that is golden points for bragging and advertising. I submit however, that if you measured efficiency at actual typical conditions of use, the SEER would be found to be highly misleading.

    Note that SEER does not reward the mfg for humidity control. It is merely a calculation of heat efficiency under one atypical condition. So how could you rely on good humidity control, or energy savings anywhere like what the numbers suggest?

    Some people in my region argue that anytime you pay up for more than about 13 SEER, you are wasting your money. While I don't always agree with them or even understand what they are thinking, this time I think they may be right. You may get with a high SEER system, a variable speed air handler and/or a dual-speed compressor system, and those things may be worth it in terms of comfort if not in dollars. But I would point out that those things are only loosely related to SEER.

    Personally, I might buy a high SEER Trane system in the future, seeking the comfort benefits that are supposed to be there. But I would be extremely surprised if my energy and dollar savings were in proportion to the SEER rating. I think they would be far less, and that is contradictory to the Trane website claims.

    If anyone thinks I have stated wrongly, let us hear why.

    Hope this helps -- P.Student

  8. #21
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Sarasota. Fl
    Posts
    1,301

    Re: I suggest SEER contains fakery

    Originally posted by perpetual_student
    Miami Mike said:

    >>Here is a link to help you decide on a particular SEER.
    >>http://www.trane.com/Residential/GettingStarted/EfficiencySavings.aspx

    IMO this link is not nearly as good as most of what Miami Mike says. Trane here is claiming that SEER rating is proportional to energy use in the home, and I don't think anyone can demonstrate that to be true.

    One reason is SEER is a laboratory measurement taken under conditions way different from the climate in Miami, S.Texas, or almost anywhere else. The mfgs knock themselves out to score high on the SEER test because that is golden points for bragging and advertising. I submit however, that if you measured efficiency at actual typical conditions of use, the SEER would be found to be highly misleading.

    Note that SEER does not reward the mfg for humidity control. It is merely a calculation of heat efficiency under one atypical condition. So how could you rely on good humidity control, or energy savings anywhere like what the numbers suggest?

    Some people in my region argue that anytime you pay up for more than about 13 SEER, you are wasting your money. While I don't always agree with them or even understand what they are thinking, this time I think they may be right. You may get with a high SEER system, a variable speed air handler and/or a dual-speed compressor system, and those things may be worth it in terms of comfort if not in dollars. But I would point out that those things are only loosely related to SEER.

    Personally, I might buy a high SEER Trane system in the future, seeking the comfort benefits that are supposed to be there. But I would be extremely surprised if my energy and dollar savings were in proportion to the SEER rating. I think they would be far less, and that is contradictory to the Trane website claims.

    If anyone thinks I have stated wrongly, let us hear why.

    Hope this helps -- P.Student
    Good points.

    The link I provided was simply another "tool" to get a "general idea" of potential savings from a higher SEER of equipment. But that link is not the "end all".

    All sorts of things from local utility rates, average temps and quality of installation can effect the savings received from higher SEER equipment.

    But down South, with a good installation and all other things being equal.....

    Higher Seer CERTAINLY saves a good deal of money, as I have the electric bills form my own home to prove it.

    Ive never recommended anything higher than a 13-17 SEER because after the 16 or so SEER mark you begin paying for "comfort". It is no longer about lowering utility bills.

    And in that case, I would say the numbers posted in the link are valid because they clearly show that the percentage of savings becomes reduced once you cross the 16-17 SEER threshold.








    It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.

    ~Albert Camus

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    4H: Hot, Humid Houston H.O.
    Posts
    3,304

    Those numbers?

    As I read it, that Trane website claims that a 12 SEER system costs half as much to run as a 6 SEER, and an 18 SEER costs one third. My position is I do not think this is true. After all, SEER is measured at a temperature in the low 80's is it not? And is not the humidity so low that is not a factor in the SEER grade?

    There are other variables left uncovered, such as condition of the ductwork. Since that is often a problem in real world installations, to me that is another reason to disbelieve that a high SEER system will save in proportion to its SEER number. That website clearly glosses over any variable but SEER.

    Again I respect Trane and think they make good equipment. It's just their marketing stuff that I think is not straight shooting.

    If anyone ever tests high SEER equipment in a truly hot-humid climate, I would be very interested in the truth of the matter.


    Regards -- P.Student

  10. #23
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Sarasota. Fl
    Posts
    1,301
    "Potential energy savings may vary depending on your lifestyle, system settings, equipment maintenance, local climate, actual construction and installation of equipment and duct system." - Trane

    (below the chart, in the link)


    Sounds "straight shooting" to me.





    [Edited by miami mike on 06-20-2005 at 12:49 AM]
    It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.

    ~Albert Camus

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    68,797
    P student, yes seer rating is at a low temp.

    You may never have the seer test temp and humidity in your area.

    Even on bad duct work, a 12 seer will use less electric then a 6 seer.

    Its a base reference.

    Its like the epa mpg test on new cars.

    Get over your seer hang up.

    Change out your old system with a 10 seer now while you still can, if your afraid you won't get your moneys worth later.


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