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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    2,190

    Nice neat job!

    You "shoe-horned" a 7.5T unit into the corner of a storage area with large duct using the plenum/ mixing box theory of duct sizing and did it in a neat, workman like manner that is a good reflection on the pride/care you take in your work.

    For those they think they could have done better with the limitations that were handed this gentleman ( look at the doorway, and electrical fixture location etc
    I wonder how you would have been able to improve on his work product

    I suspect that the relatively velocity in the large, short duct run you describe could have used more than 0.1 of static.
    PS, I also applaud your neat use of board. For those who would have used sheet metal (bare or wrapped) I guess you would have told the customer they need to live with the noise.
    You have got to learn from other people's mistakes! Because God knows you don't live long enough to make them all yourself !!!!!!!!

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Palm Beach,Fl.
    Posts
    958
    Looks good to me, i'm a Florida native so i can appreciate clean looking ductboard. More often than not, we're tearing out old sheet metal in favor of board and flex because nobody wants to pay for it. We haven't done a resi metal job in 6 years. I would definitely have trapped the drain going into the sink piping. Sight glasses are a nice touch.
    Quote Originally Posted by k-fridge View Post
    The laws of physics know no brand names.

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Milwaukee,WI
    Posts
    1,069
    Quote Originally Posted by genduct View Post
    For those who would have used sheet metal (bare or wrapped) I guess you would have told the customer they need to live with the noise.
    They do make all different kinds of acoustical liner for metal duct you know....
    ___________________________

    Chicago is an indian word for stinky!!!!!!
    -supertek65

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    517
    Well if you're looking for a critic you came to the right place.

    I would probably trap that condensate line. No way it'll drain properly no matter how it's connected to a sink trap. You'll still pull air through the cond drain. It'll either be air from sink drain or sewer gas depending on which side of the sink trap you tied into. Otherwise, looks good to me. Of course everything around here is sheet metal though.

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    2,190

    Yo Lash, I think I've heard about that liner stuff!

    SInce your profile says "Commercial/Industrial Sheet Metal Foreman" I hope you'll agree that it takes a good mechanic ( aka Journeyman) to do any job right, regardless of the material.
    Point is this guys job looks like he cares and it shows. Me thinks too many are hung up on the material choice.
    You have got to learn from other people's mistakes! Because God knows you don't live long enough to make them all yourself !!!!!!!!

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    SW Florida
    Posts
    1,260

    Yo Genduct

    I inhabit the same world as Lash, and there is no way that we would "shoehorn" a too small plenum around a 3/8" rod hanging a 4' flourescent fixture. Its a neat looking installation regardless of the duct material, but it is a modern industry standard "expedient" install. We dont roll like that

    Quote Originally Posted by genduct View Post
    SInce your profile says "Commercial/Industrial Sheet Metal Foreman" I hope you'll agree that it takes a good mechanic ( aka Journeyman) to do any job right, regardless of the material.
    Point is this guys job looks like he cares and it shows. Me thinks too many are hung up on the material choice.

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    East Coast FL
    Posts
    1,058
    genduct - your friendly support is noted and appreciated.

    We have done many better jobs than this one. (I say we b/c it was my father and I , family business) This particular one just happened to have pics lying around so I thew them out there.

    If I remember right , after the job was finished we celebrated by grilling fine steaks and drinking beer from Holland.

    When your hungry as a contractor , and you get a chance at a juicy changeout , you tend to overlook little things like , where the customer wants the air handler , whether or not the drain line is optimal , the duct material used , etc. We were thankfull to have work.

    Obviously on our new construction jobs , where everything is planned to a T , you will have more room for equipment and ductwork layout than an add on / replacement project.

    I dont know why people are worried about my supply plenum , it went through the wall , turned 90 degrees , down about 18 feet , and had 6 sidewall grills , all calculated. Basically an extended plenum design.

    It was quiet and worked nicely.

    There are many ways to design and execute a duct system.

    This is just one example.

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    2,190

    Sometimes you build it less efficient ..on purpose

    Had you used turning vanes in that first elbow then with only 18 feet of duct you would have needed to add a volume damper on the other side of that efficient elbow OR used the OBD behind each side wall register which would have just made more noise.

    I think you done good and know that anyone who takes pride in what they do will always do the best job that the customer or field conditions will allow.

    My hat is off to you!!!

    By the way, most of our plan and spec work turns out being design build given the last time an engineer actually went to a job site to understand what the field conditions were.

    Mike
    You have got to learn from other people's mistakes! Because God knows you don't live long enough to make them all yourself !!!!!!!!

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    2,190

    Yo zzonko

    Here I would have thought your job description is just like mine:
    TRYING TO SQUEEZE 10 POUNDS OF STUFF INTO A 5 POUND BAG!!!!!
    You know after 30 years I can get almost 7 pounds into that bag... but damn .. what to do with the other 3 ????????????????

    You must have a more enlighten customer base in Fl with unlimited budgets unlike my Philadelphia area that is just struggling
    You have got to learn from other people's mistakes! Because God knows you don't live long enough to make them all yourself !!!!!!!!

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    East Coast FL
    Posts
    1,058
    Much thanks genduct.

    It sure is refreshing to hear from someone who is "real world" minded.

    Someone with common sense who can read between the lines and understands that quality , craftsmanship , and design dont always meet with text book principals.

    Sometimes , its more of a gut understanding , of what works , developed through years of experience.

    Not that you throw the book away , surely no.

    However , not every technique or component goes "across the board"

    And I know where your coming from on the design build.

    Many times we would submit to change the engineers drawing or design , b/c many times it would flat out not work.

    Example : condensing units located under stairwell , commercial air handlers in attics with no good means of access or future replacement option , duct running straight through concrete beams , etc..

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Milwaukee,WI
    Posts
    1,069
    Quote Originally Posted by genduct View Post
    Had you used turning vanes in that first elbow then with only 18 feet of duct you would have needed to add a volume damper on the other side of that efficient elbow OR used the OBD behind each side wall register which would have just made more noise.
    Considering the transition directly off the unit and the fact that the supply basically does a u-turn I'm sure vanes would not have made that much of a noise difference. Adding a single VD isn't that big of a deal, is it?


    Just imagine whats going to happen to the insulation on the inside of heel with 3000 cfm of air constantly beating against it.
    ___________________________

    Chicago is an indian word for stinky!!!!!!
    -supertek65

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    2,190

    Lash, that's an intelligent observation/ question

    I am guessing, judging by the door and the width of the airhandler that we have about a 20+"x16+" discharge , maybe close to 3 sq ft probably 1000 Or less FPM so the potential pressure drop penalty with this "inefficient' plenum connection is pretty small. Where I would agree with you would be if this unit had one of those small, high velocity discharges where the system effect losses are potentially a real airflow killer.

    My point is/was that you can't just apply rules or "best practices" without understanding why the rule was developed. So with the short duct system, a motor that will probably be 150% of what you need I can see that making the duct less efficient with NO VANES so I won't need the air noise associated with a 70% closed damper would be a smart approach. / I thought AiResearch did exactly what I would have done, so I agreed with him. Do you see my point


    I'll give you another example: I have been a rowing referee for 33 consecutive years and when I get the chance I share that same perspective of explaining where and why the rules are what they are with the younger refs. That is how you develop refs who apply the rules and don't inflict them on the competitors. Lucky for me I still can remember what it was like to be in shape, taking bites out of telephone poles and sitting on the line ready to beat the other guy to the finish line
    You have got to learn from other people's mistakes! Because God knows you don't live long enough to make them all yourself !!!!!!!!

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    SW Florida
    Posts
    1,260
    Oh please dude. Its simply a economical (cheap) install that was designed to miss a 2 bulb flourescent fixture. you wanna be the king of cheap thats yer biz, but dont tell us to "open our minds". Also if you want to play sage here, stalking guys hurts your credibility.



    Quote Originally Posted by genduct View Post
    I am guessing, judging by the door and the width of the airhandler that we have about a 20+"x16+" discharge , maybe close to 3 sq ft probably 1000 Or less FPM so the potential pressure drop penalty with this "inefficient' plenum connection is pretty small. Where I would agree with you would be if this unit had one of those small, high velocity discharges where the system effect losses are potentially a real airflow killer.

    My point is/was that you can't just apply rules or "best practices" without understanding why the rule was developed. So with the short duct system, a motor that will probably be 150% of what you need I can see that making the duct less efficient with NO VANES so I won't need the air noise associated with a 70% closed damper would be a smart approach. / I thought AiResearch did exactly what I would have done, so I agreed with him. Do you see my point


    I'll give you another example: I have been a rowing referee for 33 consecutive years and when I get the chance I share that same perspective of explaining where and why the rules are what they are with the younger refs. That is how you develop refs who apply the rules and don't inflict them on the competitors. Lucky for me I still can remember what it was like to be in shape, taking bites out of telephone poles and sitting on the line ready to beat the other guy to the finish line

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