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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    47
    My new Carrier Infinity system was installed last week at my home in Northern Virginia. I have mixed feelings about the job that the installers did. They did very neat work and the job looks professional. For the work with the refrigerant, they did a very good job as far as I can tell: I chatted with the techs and was told that they braze with nitrogen, used damp rags to cover the components, etc. But I've found a few things I want correct and would appreciate any other comments.

    The model numbers are:

    Furnace: 58MVP060-14 (94% AFUE condensing furnace)
    A/C: 38TDB037




















    I have read all the installation instructions for every component and have identified the following concerns:

    1) The exhaust vent is not 12” above the intake as Carrier’s instructions require, and does not seem to follow the requirements for offset of less than 12”. Also, it may need to be located higher. It’s about 22” off the ground, and we get snow that high about every 10 years. It shouldn’t be a problem as long as I clear it during the snow, but the next owners may not do this or I could be away in a blizzard.

    2) The TXV is mounted incorrectly. The instructions say it should be vertical, but it is horizontal.

    3) The chimney flue liner for the water heater was not mortared where the liner enters the masonry flue. I was told it was unnecessary because it was sealed at the top, but I think it should be sealed for both safety and energy efficiency reasons.

    4) Condensate pump safety switch was not placed in line with 24 VAC supply from thermostat to furnace. (Is this even possible with the unconventional Infinity wiring? Should it go on the D wire, which the instructions say is the 24VAC (hot) conductor?)

    Minor problems:
    1) Small gap in caulking where the condensate lines leave the coil case.

    2) Cable clamp not tightened where the furnace 14/2 cable enters the electric panel.

    3) Romex used instead of armored cable. (I'd prefer AC, but am not going to quibble on this.)

    4) Caps to cover unused air intakes and exhaust ports on furnace not screwed in with sheet metal screw per Carrier instructions

    5) A metal patch on the ducts was not sealed with tape.

    6) Electric knockout to outdoor unit not sealed properly.

    A clip that holds the furnace front panel is missing, but it should be installed soon.

    Other questions:

    1) Carrier’s instructions say that the A/C condensate drain must have a trap prior to connection to furnace drain. I presume this isn’t required when they both drain separately into a condensate pump. Also, the condensate pump drains into the laundry tub. Is it acceptable for me to install a standpipe similar to a washing machine drain for the condensate? Or to tie it into the washing machine standpipe next to the tub? I don’t like it going into the tub in case I put the plug in to soak something or I have something in there that I don’t want furnace condensate dripping onto.

    2) Although the quote specified an encased coil (CD5AXA036), the installers built their own case because there wasn’t sufficient room between the furnace and the existing ducts to install the coil case and make an adequate transition. (I was away and don’t know whether they pulled the coil from the case or replaced it with one that comes uncased.) Is this anything I should be concerned about? Durability, efficiency?

    3) I looked at the service mode on the thermostat and noticed that although the thermostat stated that the A/C had operated in both high and low stages about 10 times each, the hours counter read zero for the low stage while the high stage read about 10. (This was over a weekend that seems perfect for low stage operation—very humid but only about 80-85 outside.) I’ve done some reading and understand that this is a known bug, but shouldn’t it have been fixed by now? All of my equipment was built in the last two months judging by the serial numbers.

    4) It sounds like fluid is flowing through the filter/dryer when the A/C is running. I know fluid is running, but I don't remember ever hearing one of these make noise before.

    [Edited by kcb203 on 06-06-2005 at 03:31 PM]

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    47
    I'm surprised this hasn't sparked any comments. If my post was too long to read, my main concern is whether the TXV will function properly when mounted horizontally. The other stuff I can take care of myself (mix up some mortar for the chimney flue and attach some 2" PVC to extend the exhaust and air intakes up higher).

    Any comments on this? I've appreciated all the assistance I've received from the board in choosing the unit--so far so good.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    cocoa fl
    Posts
    143
    sounds like if you look hard enough you will find somethings to complain about. if you find something that really needs to be addressed i suggest giving the contractor a chance to rectify the situation but from what i can see it looks good. but i didn't pay for it call the contractor till your satisfied.

    and believe it or not hvac guys can really read, even long threads.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    2,635
    I don't think he was knocking our reading abilities central. In fact, I think he hit the nail on the head. I usually take short homeowner posts and give long answers. But this was more than I cared to tackle. Plus I'm not a Carrier dealer.

    Anyway, a short answer to some of it kcb.
    1) Ask them about that if you wish. But other than the snow issue it doesn't make a lot of difference IMO. That’s not the same thing as saying they were completely professional about it. But you have to pick your battles.
    2) TXVs work off of three pressures. Gravity does not come into play. As such I don't know why the instructions require vertical mounting. But at the same time I never discount the installation instructions till I've talked to factory tech support to understand the reasoning behind the instructions. Sporlan is a famous maker of TXVs. Their instructions say that their TXVs can be mounted in any position. The very first page.
    3) I dunno. I haven't had opportunity to deal with liners. Get a copy of the installation instructions.
    4) It should be hooked up somewhere. Have them take care of it.

    1) Typical. Splooge it yourself in order to keep your list of corrections focused on important stuff.
    2) Tighten it yourself for the same reason as above.
    3) As far as I know romex can't be used in areas where it can be chaffed by people. As far as I know the exposed romex should instead be some sort of BX, MC, AC or whatever your local terminology is. Call the local building department if you're not sure. Speaking of which, did the inspector pass the job? Was a permit pulled? If not and if it's required then that changes the dynamic greatly.
    4) Have them take care of it or explain why it shouldn't be.
    5) Tape it yourself for the same reason as 1.
    6) Ask for a knockout cover.

    1) The traps serve to keep air from being sucked in or blown out. The furnace has its own trap so you're golden. But the evap coil should be trapped as well to prevent the loss of conditioned air through the pipe. It's a minor deal obviously. But I'd have them take care of it. You paid thousands for a professional job or didn't you?
    2) Don't worry about it unless you believe they installed an inferior coil. De-casing the coil is no problem. They adapted to the job.
    3) Such knowledge on the Infinity is reserved for "Carrier's finest".
    4) You're hearing the fluid because there's vapor in the line. This can be normal. It depends. Ask them if they fined tuned the charge by the proper method.

    Stick to your guns on this. We need more customers who demand top notch service. The hackers will squeal and I'll love it.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    68,764
    The txv should work ok like it is, but its best to have them vertical.

    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    midwest
    Posts
    2,868
    Irascible gave you all the answers you were looking for and I am not going to add anything important but what were they thinking when they built the offset for the cold air return? Am I missing some reason for the way they made that fitting?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    2,987
    Originally posted by kcb203

    2) The TXV is mounted incorrectly. The instructions say it should be vertical, but it is horizontal.
    At Sporlan, we call them TEVs

    From your image, I see no problem with the valve piping.

    However, its sensing bulb seems to be mounted perpendicular to the suction line ??? Did the installer install a sensing bulb well in the suction line? If so, I'd be impressed...

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    47
    Thanks for the comments. I have fixed or will fix the minor things (loose cable clamps, etc.).

    It's interesting how the major things were done well but they took a few shortcuts on the little things. I pulled the thermostat off the wall to plug the hole and to use drywall inserts to support the screws (they just screwed directly into the wall). And there is no wirenut on the groundwire connection in the disconnect switch. Little things like that drive me nuts (I probably know the NEC better than any other homeowner with no real reason to know about electricity).

    I wasn't knocking anyone's reading ability--my eyes tend to glaze over when I see long posts in any forum.

    They did get a permit but the inspector hasn't been out yet. One of the reasons I chose this company was because they were willing to get a permit--two others were not.

    I'll check with the installer on the sounds in the filter dryer and the trap.

    Thanks again.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    2,635
    You've made a grammatical error. That should have read, "Thanks everyone and especially Irascible.". When someone you don't know has very obviously taken a great deal of time to help you it's wise to positively reinforce that behavior by mentioning them by name.

    HVAC is my trade. Etiquette is my hobby.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    391
    What kind of wire is that line going from the disconnect to the condenser unit, never seen a whip like that before, would not pass inspection in my area.
    No drip leg on gas line, cannot see clearly.

    [Edited by jrc2905 on 06-07-2005 at 11:54 PM]
    The obvious is obvious

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Tucson AZ
    Posts
    55

    vent termination

    I would also recommend that the vent termination be corrected. The reason for the 12" between the inlet and outlet is to prevent re-circulation of the exhaust into the intake. I think this is important. As far as above the expected snow accumulation this should be based on average not on the extreme. I think you're ok there.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    47

    Wink

    Thank you Irascible. I'll think of you fondly when I sit in my 75 degree air with 50% humidity.

    There is a drip leg on the gas--it's to the left side of the PVC pipes.

    I think there is a well for the TXV sensor bulb. I pulled the insulation back a little and there is a fitting with a hole that allows the sensor to be inserted perpendicularly.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    2,635
    I'll send a framed picture so you can stare at if fondly.
    (lol - just a little joke there)

    Bob is right. But... The actual amount of recirculation is likely to be negligible. Obviously that's a guess and I could be way off base. When it's the right temperature outside you'll see the exhaust coming out as a fog. It'll be pretty easy to see if it's recirculating. If there's a code about how high that stuff has to be for snow clearance, and if it doesn't meet that code, then you may as well have it redone.

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