ReplyIt just kills me when people are so angry they must yell at me by typing in all caps.
Regular Guest
GEEZ,IT JUST KILLS ME TO SEE TWO COMPANIES SO DARN HUNGARY TO CUT EACH OTHERS THROAT.ILL CRACK UP OVER THAT ONE-I CANT KEEP UP WITH MY NEW INSTALLS OR SERVICE WORK-WHEN YOU DO IT RIGHT YOU DONT HAVE TO CUT EACH OTHERS THROAT -WORD GETS AROUND-YOU DONT HAVE TO ADVERTISE EITHER,I NEVER HAVE AND HAVE ALWAYS HAD MORE THAN I COULD DO YEAR AROUND.WHY DO YOU GUYS TRY TO OUT DO EACH OTHER-ISNT THERE PLENTY FOR EVERBODY?IVE NEVER HAD THAT PROBLEM-THANK GOD-I JUST DO IT RIGHT.
THANK YOU,
RIFLE
Regular Guest
It just kills me when people are so angry they must yell at me by typing in all caps.
Professional Member BM -bad email address
I think that you should get seven(7)more estimates, and after that get seven more, and after that get seven more, and after that get seven more, and after that get 777777777777777 more. No wonder you are confused. Good Grief! Boy am I glad you did not call me.
Regular Guest
Hmmm, someone doesn't like educated consumers???
I've never bought a central heating/cooling system before. There are several brands to choose from and thousands of dealers. I was just doing my homework so that I could make the best decision for me and my family.
I get a carfax before I buy a used car and I check consumer reports. I test drive a few different makes/models to narrow it down then I find the best overal deal (meaning person/dealer, price, perks, etc.) and buy the vehicle. I don't just look in the penny saver and find a yugo and go get it. I don't have the option to test drive AC units, so I had to educate myself the best I could.
Regular Guest
I'm confused. I thought R22, like R12, was/is being phased out?
But manufacturers are still building systems with R22?
Regular Guest
I am also considering replacing a 20+ year old unit.
I am thinking of relocating the condensor unit outside to the otherside of the house. It will be approx. 50-60 feet away from the evap coil. Is this too far?
Will I lose unit efficiency?
It's in the backyard where it is an eyesore and in the way of a future deck. FYI.
Professional Member*
mom,
The ratio of bad contractors to good is probably 20 to 1. So if you blindly called you'd need 20 estimates. But if you narrowed it down by doing a little pre-screening then maybe you found a good one out of the seven.
Of course I define contractors that just go along to get along as being bad. They may put in OK stuff that works. But mediocrity is their way of life. Manual D & J are alien concepts. Custom engineering the diffuser selection for proper throw to each room is a few too many syllables for them. And the only thing "air balancing" means to them is having all four tires inflated to the same pressure.
If you're just a cheapskate looking to get something for nothing from a desperate contractor willing to work for minimum wage then you'll get what you deserve. But if you're looking for that one in twenty contractor that actually knows how to make a kick a** system then get 7 more bids if you have too! I'm right there with you.
vulcan,
They can't make R-22 equipment after 2010 and they can't make the R-22 refrigerant after 2020. Existing stock will be around for a long time after that. And drop in replacements will be available. At this exact moment there's no clear advantage to getting an R22 system or a R410A system. They both have pros and cons. But as it stands I think R22 equipment is still the higher volume product by quite a bit.
50 or 60 feet is not a problem. In some cases a suction line will need to be made one size bigger to compensate for distance. But that would most likely be true only if the current line is already a bit on the small side.
[Edited by Irascible on 06-08-2005 at 09:10 AM]
Regular Guest
I wasn't being a cheapskate, just trying to get the best deal for my money. If I could actually get 7 more companies out here to find a competetively priced one that got pemits and really feel like they would do it by the book I would. But like I said its not easy even getting them to return calls.
BTW, my dad bought a new heat pump about a year ago. He narrowed it down to the brand he wanted first, then had 6 bids, went with the first one (who was not the cheapest).
I'm really glad this is a purchase I only have to make oce every 15-20 years.
Professional Member*
By entertaining the bidding war, you virtually guarantee that the eventual installation will be substandard at best.
Bid is an acronym for Beat Idiots Deal.
A quality contractor will give you a proposal for all of the required work, possibly with some options. Usually any lowering of the price will be as the result of lowering the level of equipment, or dropping options.
If the "contractors" you have bids from are dropping the price of the system that was already much lower than some of the other proposals, and are offering better equipment at the new lower price, RUN FROM THEM! You will not be getting a quality installation from them.
Regular Guest
You are doing fine. And this is a learning process. It's just that buying HVAC is not quite like buying a car because HVAC involves local labor and skill as a major component of the whole deal. Please review my first post on page one of this thread. When I wrote, I had the feeling you were encouraging a bidding war. When I buy a car, do my research and rove around dealers like you do, but when I start talking price, I say I want their best price NOW, and when I walk away I let them know I consider this to be their best price. I do not share pricing info with other dealers. I do not always buy the lowest bid either.Originally posted by imnosupermom
I've never bought a central heating/cooling system before. There are several brands to choose from and thousands of dealers. I was just doing my homework so that I could make the best decision for me and my family.
SNIP
I don't have the option to test drive AC units, so I had to educate myself the best I could.
Have you called Home Depot for a Trane offer? Many of the pros here hate the idea of Home Deport and Sears being in the HVAC market. But for you, this would be a sanity check on what the other contractors are telling you. And by the way, at the Trane web site, you can find a list of local Trane dealers.
http://trane.com/Residential/DealerInfo/DealerInfo.aspx
Hopefully there will be a few who have a red icon by their names designating "Trane Comfort Specialist."
Good Luck,
Al
Regular Guest
I would hope one call to Home Depot will suffice. You already have a lot of info.Originally posted by imnosupermom
I wasn't being a cheapskate, just trying to get the best deal for my money. If I could actually get 7 more companies out here to find a competetively priced one that got pemits and really feel like they would do it by the book I would. But like I said its not easy even getting them to return calls.
I assume your dad is not close by, or you would have gone to his contractor. But he should be able to sort through all the details with you and give his advice. Not that you have to take it or course.Originally posted by imnosupermom
BTW, my dad bought a new heat pump about a year ago. He narrowed it down to the brand he wanted first, then had 6 bids, went with the first one (who was not the cheapest).
Also, think back as to whether you have shared a lot of information from one contractor to another. Some sales people will ask if you have had other contractors visiting and will pump you for info. I'd rather just say yes and little else. Let the guy visiting you at the time stand on his own two feet. Of course you should use your knowledge to help him focus on the features you want and to stay close to your budget, but you need not let him know who said what. Otherwise, some contractors will just bad mouth the competition, sometimes with lies or through ignorance.
By the way, back to your first post about the 2 1/2 ton Payne and the 3 ton bids. Manual J can solve that discrepancy. But if your house is similar to others in the neighborhood, it might help to learn what your neighbors have done to replace their original systems, especially if you can find one or two where the orientation to the sun is the same. It is very unusual to find an original system that is undersized. Usually it is oversized.
Good luck,
Al
Regular Guest
Home Depot was one of the companies that never called me back. However when one of the guys I had called on my own came he was a Bryant and Trane rep and I asked if he did work for HD cause the name was familiar and he said yes... I think it was the same company that was suppose to call me for HD and never did. The Trane estimate he gave me was huge... 5 numbers before the decimal point, lol.
I also started thinking this morning about what a nightmare it was buying carpet from HD and working with subcontractors getting it installed, I wonder if AC would be similiar.
I honestly wasn't trying to fuel the bid war. Mainly what I did was say our top budget ix X and I'm considering these brands. I have a feeling I did provide more info to the competing dealers than I should have.
My dad is over 1000 miles away. None of the neighbors I know have replaced their system yet.
It is all a learning curve, right...
Regular Guest
This is extremely good advice. Don't upsize your system just because you want 'more cooling'. As you've already said, the existing system is broken because of the clogged coil. Also note that you can't size a system by rules of thumb such as so-many-square-feet per ton.Originally posted by alinnova
By the way, back to your first post about the 2 1/2 ton Payne and the 3 ton bids. Manual J can solve that discrepancy. But if your house is similar to others in the neighborhood, it might help to learn what your neighbors have done to replace their original systems, especially if you can find one or two where the orientation to the sun is the same. It is very unusual to find an original system that is undersized. Usually it is oversized.
Make acceptance of any proposal contingent on a Manual J heat gain calculation, with a credit for each half ton if it turns out you only need 2.0 or 2.5T
Regular Guest
I'm guessing the manual J calculation isn't just something I can do.I have a feeling I'm driving the guys as crazy as I'm driving some of you. I did question yesterday if 3 ton was too big and I should stick to 2.5 and he said it was fine, but didn't do the manual J.
Professional Member*
Banned
What he siad should get him off your short list of contractors.Originally posted by imnosupermom
I'm guessing the manual J calculation isn't just something I can do.
Larger system= Larger Ducts.
You need to majke a list of theadvice items on this thread and stick to them,to get a good job on your home.
Regular Guest
I already had the ducts checked to make sure they could handle the 3 ton system and that was one thing all contractors agreed upon.
Regular Guest
http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bldg/pubs/ACsize/Originally posted by imnosupermom
I did question yesterday if 3 ton was too big and I should stick to 2.5 and he said it was fine, but didn't do the manual J.
Banned
Originally posted by imnosupermom
I already had the ducts checked to make sure they could handle the 3 ton system and that was one thing all contractors agreed upon.
How did the test them or did they just "take a look"?
Not trying to be a pain,but didn't they agree no Man J is needed to determine the correct size.
Regular Guest
They just looked in the crawl space and said 'they can handle a 3 ton, but no bigger'. No testing involved. Nobody mentioned a manual j calculation. I think they said I had a 6" going into the bathroom.
K, I did the manual j (guestimated best I could) how do I interperate the results? I've got a heat gain # and a heat loss #. Which # do I use and what do I divide it by to get the tonage I should use?
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