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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    4
    any help would be much appreciated....

    i'm in a new 2200 square foot house north of Toronto, Canada. I've been told by several salespeople that i need a 2.5 ton system (no one seems to do any load calcuations around here - its all based on square feet, i spoke to approx 10 contractors so far).

    The units I'm considering are:

    - York Stellar 2000 HDE
    - the Lennox HS29
    - Carrier 38TKB

    Prices for these are very close.

    I understand the contractor/installation is a major part of how the unit will perform but I would still like to know which one you would recommend, or would you suggest another make/model in the same range (10-12 SEER, R-22)

    There are too few Trane dealers in Canada so I don't think I will consider Trane

    Any thoughts would be great...thanks!
    Gruaux

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    montreal, canada
    Posts
    9
    ok at less 2200 sq feet you need 3 ton,and go whit lennox hpbx15 r410, the most quiet. enjoy

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    2,633
    You understand incorrectly. The contractor isn't a major part. He or she is the major part.

    Let me put it to you another way. You most likely believe that these contractors will work with similar levels of craftsmanship. Otherwise brand wouldn't be the deciding factor. But in my opinion the only way that all three could be similar is if all three are hacks. The odds of finding even one contractor out of three that will do everything that they're supposed to low. That three would do it all? You'd win the lottery first. Find out which contractor (if any) is the real craftsman and you'll have your answer. If you haven't visited the wall of shame forum then do so.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    4
    Thanks for the answer...
    For the Lennox and York, it's from the same contractor. Which would you go with, York Stellar HDE or Lennox HS29 ?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    2,633
    I prefer Lennox. But I couldn't prove why in a court of law. I can say that I liked Lennox equipment when I worked for a Lennox dealer. And I can also say that when I worked for a different contractor when the customer wanted nothing but low price we'd put in York.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    33,399
    Originally posted by eric fillion
    ok at less 2200 sq feet you need 3 ton,and go whit lennox hpbx15 r410, the most quiet. enjoy
    So without seeing the house, you can tell him what size he needs? And a 15 SEER in Canada is a good investment?



    gruaux, I would demand a load calc before buying. That will tell you which dealers are serious about your biz. All 3 units quoted are the premium of that brand's 10 SEER line. Properly sized & installed, all will do fine.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    chicago suburbs
    Posts
    4,422
    15 seer..

    I think the cooling season in Canada lasts under 24 hours.
    FILL OUT YOUR PROFILE!!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    5,998

    Question Seasonal Cooling Needs

    Originally posted by tinner73
    15 seer.. I think the cooling season in Canada lasts under 24 hours.
    Perhaps, Toronto is similar to Minneapolis MN.
    or 750 hours > 75'

    70- 75 ...670 Hours

    75- 79 ...431
    80- 85 ...229
    86- 89 ... 71
    90- .... 16
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    2,633
    There's so much fascination with cooling hours out there. It's too bad that it so rarely resembles the reality of actual customer usage.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    5,998

    Lightbulb Location ... Location ... Location ... ! !! !!!

    Originally posted by Irascible
    There's so much fascination with cooling hours out there. It's too bad that it so rarely resembles the reality of actual customer usage.
    ( OUTside - INside ) Temperature = REALity
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    2,633
    For comparing different climate zones to each other the whole cooling hours shtick is useful.

    But cooling hours has bupkiss to do with any one customer's actual usage. When consolidators use those formulas to sell energy efficiency they're engaged in marketing, not reality. Depending on the climate, their formulas will often increase the energy savings estimate by two to three times what the actual number will be. Proof of the real intent of those formulas can be found in the simple fact that it's EASY to pull old utility bills and calculate REAL savings. It might take five minutes longer to do that than it would to run the bogus formula. But then the consolidators couldn’t sham the customer as easily.

    Now before you fly off the handle there dan, let me say that I don't know exactly what formulas you are using and to what end. They may have nothing to do with what I’m thinking of. I simply have this knee jerk reaction anytime I hear or see a contractor refer to those terms. If they're of the consolidator mold, they're using those terms for subterfuge. They don’t think so and that’s fine. We can disagree. What you're using them for exactly I don't know. If for good then excuse the knee jerk reaction. I break out just thinking about consolidators.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    5,998

    Lightbulb Quality Equipment Selection

    Originally posted by Irascible
    But cooling hours has bupkiss to do with any one customer's actual usage.

    I don't know exactly what formulas you are using and to what end.

    They may have nothing to do with what I’m thinking of.
    I simply have this knee jerk reaction anytime I hear or see a contractor refer to those terms.
    You mean contractors actually know how to use temperature bin data. ?

    " But cooling hours has bupkiss to do with any one customer's actual usage."

    Cooling Degree Day comparisons from one year to the next IS Definitely Quite Useful for the local utility in explaining differences in energy usage.


    The implied question raised by tinner73 as I read between the lines is
    " Do Canadians even need to use A/C and, if so, should they stick with 12 or 13 SEER ?

    Since I do not have the ASHRAE Design Temperature for Toronto IN Hand, Minneapolis temperature bin data offers some ' related ' info on Total cooling hours to present Tinner73 of the real weather as we address drastically different conditions THROUGHOUT North America in this forum. The number of cooling hours is quite a bit less than HERE ( Naples FL). L O L

    The futile argument of selling higher SEER equipment PURELY based on Energy Savings is beyond me.

    Pursuit of Higher SEER ( > 14) equipment obviously should only be approached from a COMFORT, significant humidity control, off-peak load ( >>> 70% of the time) performance enhancement and moderate noise advantage.

    TRANE SEER 13 has been my STANDARD for a few years.

    A few of my QUALITY Custom home Builders are now requesting XL16i as Their Standard. I wish MANY more builders would join them as the price of higher end equipment is $lowly reduced.
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    2,633
    Thanks for the clarification Dan. I'm glad you're more scientist than propagandist.

    The people that I speak of are often barely literate. They're not reading bin data. Those drones are simply following orders from their drum beating task masters. They use simple mathematical formulas to project energy savings that happens to invoke heating degree days and cooling hours. The numbers that those formulas produce are often two or three times higher than reality. So they lie to sell - plain and simple.

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