Geothermal vertical loop questions - noob

[csgo]

Please help out a noob here. I have a two year old WaterFurnace system with closed loop vertical well system.

The problem I have is that the WaterFurnace keeps kicking off with a "Water Flow" error. The loops appear to be frosted over. The contractor was out last week and measured the loop temps at 29 F in and 25 F out. He blames the problem on a "cold loop". A different company drilled the wells and he had me pay them separately. That company has now changed ownership and they say "90 day warranty only".

I have 6 wells in my yard. 4 of them are 150' deep, the 5th is 100' and the 6th is 50'. Wells 5 and 6 are tied together in one loop. They all go to a manifold in and out. The depths are not exact, but he said they were close enough.

I do not understand fluid dynamics, but I suspect the water will go the path of least resistance... which is probably the loop 5 and 6 route but I don't really know.

I suppose my only option is to dig up the yard and figure out what's going on, but that is going to be a major problem. I know where the manifolds are and wonder what would be wrong with making it all into one long single loop? That way I'm assured that all the water goes the entire loop.

Can someone please take the time to explain this to me? Any help is greatly appreciated!!!!!

Thanks,
-Joe

[cdhand]

Joe where do you live? What size waterfurnace? For anyone reading this I would not ever contract with two different contractors. It is a game for some where it will not be their fault and they will win the contract with the low bid. One more thing what is the diameter of the loops. The wells should have smaller diameter loops and the water will not all be able to go through one line.Curtis

[csgo]

I live in St. Louis, MO. The WaterFurnace is a 5 ton Envision unit.

Sorry, I guess I should have included that up front.

Thanks,
-Joe

[yorkguy]

joe.
Don't panic yet. The problem could be that there is not enough glycol in the loop and it is freezing in the heat exchanger because of the cold loop temp. 29 deg is getting cold but your machine should not lockout. Let me know if your installer checked when he came out.

[csgo]

joe.
Don't panic yet. The problem could be that there is not enough glycol in the loop and it is freezing in the heat exchanger because of the cold loop temp. 29 deg is getting cold but your machine should not lockout. Let me know if your installer checked when he came out.

No, he didn't check anything but the loop pressure and temperatures. Blamed it on a cold loop and left.

If I reset the unit it will run maybe a day or two before it happens again.

-Joe

[cdhand]

Joe I think you may have been sold a short loop I am not a pro but I have a three and two ton system with 6 200 ft wells in Virginia, that gives me 1200 ft.and you only have 750 ft. in a much colder part of the country.

[yorkguy]

No, he didn't check anything but the loop pressure and temperatures. Blamed it on a cold loop and left.

If I reset the unit it will run maybe a day or two before it happens again.

-Joe

I really would have it checked. Its possible that something worsecould be wrong but you have to eliminate all the simple thing first. There are many variables that determine proper loop length depending on soil conditions water table etc.

[csgo]

Joe I think you may have been sold a short loop I am not a pro but I have a three and two ton system with 6 200 ft wells in Virginia, that gives me 1200 ft.and you only have 750 ft. in a much colder part of the country.

That would be VERY aggravating since it's no longer possible to get a drilling rig up or other large equipment up to my house.

-Joe

[cdhand]

Joe, this has to be someones fault. Did the hvac company tell the well digger how much feet of well you would need. If so you may be able to put it on him. Someone should be held responsible for what for what they did. When you pay this much money it should work.

[csgo]

Joe, this has to be someones fault. Did the hvac company tell the well digger how much feet of well you would need. If so you may be able to put it on him. Someone should be held responsible for what for what they did. When you pay this much money it should work.

I suppose there had to be some kind of information between them. I never heard of the driller until they showed up. I sure didn't tell him how much to drill because I have no idea.

I know it took him a lot longer than he expected to drill. He kept running into what he called 'caves' or 'pockets' and couldn't drill when he hit them. I know nothing about well drilling so that was just my observation. It was so loud that it would have been impossible to ask any questions anyway.

Thanks for all the info... I welcome all suggestions.

-Joe

[yorkguy]

Have you had problems in the prior 2 years? There is way too much information needed to diagnose this over computer. There are a lot of things that could have gone wrong with the drilling but it's going to be very hard to determine since the work is all buried and you can't actually measure the length of the loops or know if they are grouted properly. You can only go by what the driller told you. I would try to look up the most reputable experienced geothermal company in your area and have the system thouroghly checked. We don't even know if it's sized properly for your house at this point let alone wheter the loop is sized right. If you can't find somebody you might try calling waterfurnace and see if they have a good dealer in your area. I really would like to know if there's enough glycol though, since that will cause the symptoms you described. The loop does sound a little cold for your part of the country but I encounter loops this temp on systems I service quite often and they are still operational. Keep us informed as to what happens.

[cdhand]

Joe I have a number for Waterfurnace that is hard to get it is 260 478-5667. I hope they will help you to find a good dealer. The problem is that your unit is working fine, and they build the best equipment but if it is not installed right it will never work. For the most part the install is out of their control. I wish you the best and if I can ever help my # is 804 580-5203. Curtis

[csgo]

Thanks again for all the info. I'm going to call the dealer and try Waterfurnace tomorrow and see what they have to say.

My house is about 2900 sq. ft. ranch style plus a full basement. The main floor is made from SIPs so I consider it very well insulated.

I don't know how to determine if there's enough glycol in the loops. I remember them saying they put some in, but I have no idea how much.

I'll keep you updated, and if there are any more ideas please let me know.

Thanks,
-Joe

[csgo]

Well I didn't get very far today. I tried to call Waterfurnace and waited on hold for a "technician" for 20 minutes before I gave up and hung up. I'm doubting they'll be able to tell me much anyway.

I think I'm going to try and find a good dealer and get an independent evaluation of the situation.

-Joe

[WF_Inc]

csgo,

We apologize for not responding earlier, as we just found your post. We will be more than happy to provide you with a list of WaterFurnace dealers in your area. Please contact us at (260)478-5667 and request to speak with the Consumer Relations department.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[djastram]

Just curious what the end solution for this problem was.

Was it SW2-2?

Thanks
DJ

[csgo]

Just curious what the end solution for this problem was.

Was it SW2-2?

Thanks
DJ

Well so far there has been no resolution. The dealer came out said the refrigerant readings were low and tried to add refrigerant. After adding he said the numbers weren't right and he would have to order parts.

A week or two later they replaced the big coil in the unit and the expansion valve. The coil had streaks on it where he said it was leaking and was a common problem.

I still have the problem and they said they would have to get a flush cart and check the anti-freeze levels in the loops. It's been a few weeks and I've heard nothing.

Guess I should start calling again.

The only other odd thing about my unit is that it makes virtually ALL the hot water I need in the winter, but almost none in the summer. That's just the opposite of what I read it's supposed to do. In the winter it stays at the high limit much of the time (I have a separate storage tank). I wish I understood why my unit is so much different than everyone elses.

Nothing more to report.

[softail124]

I think this could be an issue other than the loop, I would not be afraid of 29 degree EWT at this time of year. I had a four ton Envision doing exactly what yours is doing. The EWT was 30 and LWT was 24. You have to remember the Envison water flow light is controlled by a thermistor on a refrigerant line, if you have a bad txv it will trigger a water flow light. The first thing you have to verify is how many gpm are flowing through the unit. With these temperatures if you have 15 gpm I would say it is either a bad txv or a restriction in the txv, especially if the system has functioned properly prior to this.

[csgo]

I think this could be an issue other than the loop, I would not be afraid of 29 degree EWT at this time of year. I had a four ton Envision doing exactly what yours is doing. The EWT was 30 and LWT was 24. You have to remember the Envison water flow light is controlled by a thermistor on a refrigerant line, if you have a bad txv it will trigger a water flow light. The first thing you have to verify is how many gpm are flowing through the unit. With these temperatures if you have 15 gpm I would say it is either a bad txv or a restriction in the txv, especially if the system has functioned properly prior to this.

Ok, I've gotta ask what a TVX is?

No, they have not done anything to measure water flow. They measured the pressure and temp. That's all.

-Joe

[djastram]

A couple of things...

1) I think your loops are properly sized, at least for my area... (SE SD).
2) My desuperheater (hwg) only works in the winter as well. Not enough run time in the summer.
3) Ask him to consider a QT flow center for your system. (I think they are the greatest ever!)
4) Ask him to tell you what SW2-2 is set to. If it is set to "loop", your temps (29 in, 25 out) should not cause it to lock out on water flow. If it is set to "well" it could be a problem.
5) I haven't had very good luck determining the freeze point of glycol mix using a hygrometer, so I just throw a sample in the freezer over night. I then defrost it, while monitoring the temp of the fluid. You need 100% liquid at 15F. The problem with glycol, it gets thicker when it gets cold, and colder when it gets thick, etc. etc. Looks like a daquari.