Soldering vs. brazing - Page 3
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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    NE PA
    Posts
    698
    There are several brands of 15% silver solder (braze) that are cadmium free. Most use phosphorus as an alloying agent instead of cadmium. Additionally when brazing copper to copper with these silver bearing rods, all manufacturers state that they are self fluxing, so no flux is required. This all but eliminates the risk of cadmium toxicity.

    All soldering, brazing, and welding should be done in a well t ventilated area, and all fumes should be avoided.

    paul

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    1,815
    Originally posted by Irascible
    Solder may. StayBrite 8 won't. I know it's confusing. But corporations invest big money into research and development. We've had all sorts of new fangled technology pop up since the Kelvinator. One of them is StayBrite 8. So put down the halide torch, hop into the Studebaker and head on down to the general store and pick some up. I think you'll like it.
    I am always up for trying something new if I have proof it is reliable. I do enjoy a tried and true method I can use with the confidence that it will perform correctly though.

    My questions are: Is staybrite 8 better for the customer? What are the other advantages? Since it uses flux why use it with the possibility of contamination? Does this form a metallurgical bond the same way 15% silver solder does? With such a low melting point it is doubtful. Is it being used because it is better or easier for technicians that are too impatient to use 15 %?
    Quote
    “Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily available, they will create their own." Scott Adams

    "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
    Albert Einstein

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    2,633
    What's best for the customer is what's best for the application.

    Brazing alloy is much better at filling gaps and works better in situations where you can't get the copper perfectly clean.

    StayBrite 8 works very well on tight clean joints like on a new install. Clearly StayBrite is ideal for joints near service valves and TXVs. I'll spray a service valve with liquid heat shield (AKA liquid soap) and have it soldered up just as the liquid soap starts to steam a little.

    The issue of joint strength is a non-starter. Both rate very high. But if it's a concern then know that the weakened copper of a brazed joint will blow out before a StayBrite8 joint.

    Acid is a legitimate concern. But in most cases the residual flux is easily less of a contaminant than the ash and burned oil that comes from brazing. Even with a nitrogen purge you'll still get contamination.

    There's nothing wrong with sticking with brazing alloy. But dismissing a proven product like StayBrite is like the people that dismiss R410A as being too dangerous.

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    midwest
    Posts
    2,868
    Originally posted by Irascible
    What's best for the customer is what's best for the application.

    Brazing alloy is much better at filling gaps and works better in situations where you can't get the copper perfectly clean.

    StayBrite 8 works very well on tight clean joints like on a new install. Clearly StayBrite is ideal for joints near service valves and TXVs. I'll spray a service valve with liquid heat shield (AKA liquid soap) and have it soldered up just as the liquid soap starts to steam a little.

    The issue of joint strength is a non-starter. Both rate very high. But if it's a concern then know that the weakened copper of a brazed joint will blow out before a StayBrite8 joint.

    Acid is a legitimate concern. But in most cases the residual flux is easily less of a contaminant than the ash and burned oil that comes from brazing. Even with a nitrogen purge you'll still get contamination.

    There's nothing wrong with sticking with brazing alloy. But dismissing a proven product like StayBrite is like the people that dismiss R410A as being too dangerous.
    I agree 100%, We have been using StayBrite on all new installs for several years with no problems. The only time you will have a problem is when the fitting is loose and you will know its going to be a problem before you try to solder it.

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    2,927
    Originally posted by Irascible
    . I'll spray a service valve with liquid heat shield (AKA liquid soap) and have it soldered up just as the liquid soap starts to steam a little.

    Is that term,'liquid soap',just some California slang for heat shield? Or are you saying that you use a liquid soup as a heat shield?

    Wet rags are what I use,but I'm all for learning a new trick. Thank you.

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Camel City, NC
    Posts
    6,232

    Soldering

    I learned to use soft on suction filters when the unit pulls out for service. Doesn't make copper as soft.
    Be safe not fast. body parts don't grow back

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    2,633
    Originally posted by jacob perkins
    Is that term,'liquid soap',just some California slang for heat shield? Or are you saying that you use a liquid soup as a heat shield?
    LOL. California slang he says.

    There's a product they sell in a spray bottle that I believe is called Heat Shield. It's just a thick watery substance. For soldering it's literally all you need to protect whatever. But after buying a bottle of it I realized that I was buying nothing but repackaged liquid soap leak detector (I think Big Blue is the brand I use) at twice the price.

    The only thing I use rags for anymore is to clean up the joints for before and after soldering. You can spray down the copper pipe with liquid soap just a couple inches from your joint; solder it up and be done before the liquid soap does much of anything. It'll be warm obviously and it might start to steam a bit. But the whole process is so much more cooler than trying to break out the wet rags and brazing rod.

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    2,927
    Originally posted by Irascible
    LOL. California slang he says.

    [/B]
    All the slang words come from california,dont they?
    You taught this old dog a new trick.I will give that a try.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    3,112
    Why not use what ever the equipment manufacturer says. In the I/O booklet will be a section about connecting the tubing and those should be the directions you follow. Your coworkers have already demonstarted they don't know how to connect tubing if you have to go back and fix their leaks. Don't get in the habit of trying to memorize everything. Admit you can't and use the equipment manufacturers instructions. Also helps eliminate potential voidance of the warrenty.

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    2,633
    An owner's manual I read recently recommended changing the filter monthly. But we don't do that now do we? Nor should we in the vast majority of the cases.

    The engineering guides for many OEMs recommend 1 1/8 inch suction tubing on 4 ton ACs. Do you do that? I do. Yet most 5 ton systems don't even have that big a suction line. By not doing so you rob your customer of capacity he paid for.

    So obviously we all choose to ignore installation instructions when it suits us. I choose to do so only when I must and when it benefits my customers. (I'll have to read another install manual to see if it does recommend one type of brazing/soldering over another.) If you don't run 1 1/8 inch suction lines on your 4 and 5 ton ACs when the book says you should, then you choose to ignore the instructions when it benefits you.

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    458
    Originally posted by troyorr
    Why not use what ever the equipment manufacturer says. In the I/O booklet will be a section about connecting the tubing and those should be the directions you follow. Your coworkers have already demonstarted they don't know how to connect tubing if you have to go back and fix their leaks. Don't get in the habit of trying to memorize everything. Admit you can't and use the equipment manufacturers instructions. Also helps eliminate potential voidance of the warrenty.


    For instance, Manitowoc specifies silver solder on their new solenoid valves. Brazing temps too high.

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    1

    oxy acet vs. turbo torch and silfos vs. 50/50

    Using the 50/50 vs silfos, although the 50/50 is strong enough to hold, most techs lack the patience and sometimes the ability to properly prepare the joint for use in the hvac/r industry. I have to admit at one time I too was strictly oxy/act though over the years I have grown more acustomed to the convienance of the turbo. The use of oxy/act is not necessary for a good lasting joint, eventhough the flame is more accurate and faster in heating the joint, it can be expensive and a pain to use in every day hvac/r repairs. I would think we all have to admit the quality of the joint is up to the tech, not whether or not you use 15% or 50/50 or oxy/act or turbo.

    Besides, hvac systems and refrigeration racks have been done with 50/50 for years and held up very well.

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