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  1. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    The problem is that even if the nearly 2 million alleged militant Muslims were somehow subdued, all of the rest of the world's Muslims are for all intent and purpose a reserve to fill the void of so called militant Muslims being eliminated.

    The more non-Muslims rid the world of these alleged militant Muslims, the more easily it is for remaining militant Muslims to recruit other Muslims into their cause. That is part of the brilliance of Mohammed. He designed a military organization that can function for generations as peaceful families, yet are at any time able to be brought into the militant aspect because of their ingrained beliefs.
    IMO with a few exceptions.. the militant ones (that is, the ones that are willing to commit suicide), are mostly at the bottom of the food chain...

    Seems to me spreading democracy around the world would raise some of them high enough to not be fooled into the 72 virgin argument... Why blow up the folks you buy things from... and sell things to???
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  2. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    IMO with a few exceptions.. the militant ones (that is, the ones that are willing to commit suicide), are mostly at the bottom of the food chain...

    Seems to me spreading democracy around the world would raise some of them high enough to not be fooled into the 72 virgin argument... Why blow up the folks you buy things from... and sell things to???
    Perhaps not. Some of your more militant muslims are doctors and stuff like that. Don't be fooled into thinking radicalism is restricted to the impoverished. That is not true.

    Valid point on spreading democracy, but I even have reservations on that....
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "Who ARE you people? And WHAT are you doing in my SWAMP!?" Shrek

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

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  3. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    IMO with a few exceptions.. the militant ones (that is, the ones that are willing to commit suicide), are mostly at the bottom of the food chain...

    Seems to me spreading democracy around the world would raise some of them high enough to not be fooled into the 72 virgin argument... Why blow up the folks you buy things from... and sell things to???
    Interestingly enough, those Muslim's who blow themselves up are usually not at the bottom of the food chain. Those at the bottom of the food chain have learned how to be survivors in a tough world and are more self aware. It is the middle class and even bored upper class youth and women who are more easily manipulated into the more radical side of the Islamic movement. They are brought into the fold as being important members of something greater then their lives. They see how others who die for the Islamic cause are made martars and want that kind of glory for themselves. Yes, there are also those who do it because of the promise that their families will be provided for because of their dedication, but even those are usually not ones born into poverty.

    No, it is a mistake to sell these people short. It is a mistake to dismiss an enemies abilities. We need to open our eyes to a way of life that is completely absurd to our beliefs and accept that others will go to extreme measures to succeede in something that they have no chance of ever seeing.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  4. #30
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    You guys may be right on this... I was remembering the bomber from a movie George Clooney was in... forgot the title... where they pulled out his fingernails (OUCH).

    Kid was from lowly means, and was treated VERY poorly. Was recruited and ended up blowing up an LNG tanker.

    My thinking on the democracy thing: Raise the standard of living from nomad goat herder to professional with a home, refrigerator, AC, car(s), vacations... and maybe they will think twice before being taken down a road of militant radical behavior including sacrificing one's life. But then one has to think of the intellectual misfit kids who are led astray...

    I would like to think a TUFF military with a BIG stick would handle this... but I have my doubts on that approach also...
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  5. #31
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    Here's where we get into a real sticky situation with what it will take to turn Muslim's away from Islam. Since Islam is a pseudo religion that is more a militaristic political faction, it must be dealt with from all aspects of it's nature. Since democracy dwells on secularism for theological aspects of life, Muslims are somewhat lost when democracy does not include theology.

    I believe that Islam and Christianity have both grown to such immense proportions because they are the opposite of one another in which man must ultimately choose which side to be on. While it is absolutely true that Christian factions have been driven by evil and some still are for the most part, I believe that Islam is a design of evil whereas Jesus Christ is the spiritual good required to defeat evil.

    So, if we are to be able to allow Muslims to see the proverbial light, they must be able to replace their political and theological needs at the same time. A Christian based democracy that allows for secular government and freedom to choose spiritual beliefs, or lack thereof, is the only way to turn those existing Muslims of the world around.

    Christianity needs a focus. Jesus Christ needs to be that focus, not the dogma and doctrines of man's created religions claiming to be of Christ.

    If we can show Muslims worldwide that our true spiritual nature is not what Islam portrays it to be but rather what Jesus Christ promises for those of us who accept Him as their Saviour, along with a governing way of life that allows persons with different views on how to live be able to do so without fear of persecution, then we may be able to give hope that the people of the world can come together in peace if not in perfect harmony.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  6. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    You guys may be right on this... I was remembering the bomber from a movie George Clooney was in... forgot the title... where they pulled out his fingernails (OUCH).

    Kid was from lowly means, and was treated VERY poorly. Was recruited and ended up blowing up an LNG tanker.

    My thinking on the democracy thing: Raise the standard of living from nomad goat herder to professional with a home, refrigerator, AC, car(s), vacations... and maybe they will think twice before being taken down a road of militant radical behavior including sacrificing one's life. But then one has to think of the intellectual misfit kids who are led astray...

    I would like to think a TUFF military with a BIG stick would handle this... but I have my doubts on that approach also...
    A buddy of mine is an immigrant from the ME and he says that there would be more terrorists in operation here in the USA, but for the fact that they have found wives, families, good jobs here. They have abandoned jihad.

    So the spreading democracy idea is certainly valid, but I have some really serious nagging doubts about that I cannot shake.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "Who ARE you people? And WHAT are you doing in my SWAMP!?" Shrek

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

    "I am sorry for interrupting, please continue with your quarreling" Some chick on TV

  7. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    A buddy of mine is an immigrant from the ME and he says that there would be more terrorists in operation here in the USA, but for the fact that they have found wives, families, good jobs here. They have abandoned jihad.

    So the spreading democracy idea is certainly valid, but I have some really serious nagging doubts about that I cannot shake.
    Obviously there is no 100% solution... simply because humans are involved... funny how that works...

    However it does appear what you say seems to help a bunch. I have met numerous of those you mention above... they learn new ways and leave the old behind.

    Back in the 1990's, I had numerous customers from India... really nice folks that were easy to work with. Paid fair $$$ and paid on time (no, they did not run conv stores... they were professionals).
    GA-HVAC-Tech

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    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

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  8. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    A buddy of mine is an immigrant from the ME and he says that there would be more terrorists in operation here in the USA, but for the fact that they have found wives, families, good jobs here. They have abandoned jihad.

    So the spreading democracy idea is certainly valid, but I have some really serious nagging doubts about that I cannot shake.
    A similar situation about 5 years ago..A local's brother was called to be "activated" but refused, having found a good life here. This family has been here since the the early 90s.

  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by pdrake65 View Post
    A similar situation about 5 years ago..A local's brother was called to be "activated" but refused, having found a good life here. This family has been here since the the early 90s.
    That is good news. But "the network" is still in place. I guess that is what bothers me.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "Who ARE you people? And WHAT are you doing in my SWAMP!?" Shrek

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

    "I am sorry for interrupting, please continue with your quarreling" Some chick on TV

  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    That is good news. But "the network" is still in place. I guess that is what bothers me.
    Exactly. Also, what changes in attitude in the U.S. are going to cause these Americanized Muslims to decide that they too are being oppressed by the U.S.?

    There must be a change in the Muslim's theological belief system in order to rid them of the militant political influence claimed to be from God. Allah cannot be God.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  11. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    That is good news. But "the network" is still in place. I guess that is what bothers me.
    Tool just because some "Muslims" see the light doesn't mean squat as far as I can tell. It is the second generation Muslims in England, America and Canada who went to Pakistan to learn how to be good terrorists.

    They were the sons from what appears to be "converted" Muslims to the benefits of Western Civilization. While still Muslims their parents for the most part liked their adopted countries. The problem is that the sons read the satanic Koran and became militant after getting on the Internet and soaking up all that anti infidel crap they get fed.

    Yeah don't count on all of them becoming "Americans". If only 10% became militant we would have a problem. I think it is much higher than that. Thank you, thank you very much.
    "I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."
    "I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
    Barry Goldwater

  12. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennac View Post
    Tool just because some "Muslims" see the light doesn't mean squat as far as I can tell. It is the second generation Muslims in England, America and Canada who went to Pakistan to learn how to be good terrorists.

    They were the sons from what appears to be "converted" Muslims to the benefits of Western Civilization. While still Muslims their parents for the most part liked their adopted countries. The problem is that the sons read the satanic Koran and became militant after getting on the Internet and soaking up all that anti infidel crap they get fed.

    Yeah don't count on all of them becoming "Americans". If only 10% became militant we would have a problem. I think it is much higher than that. Thank you, thank you very much.
    This is a good point, and a scary one too. Were the second generation Muslims recruited by radical Muslims or did their parents instill the radical nature in them while pretending to assimilate?

    Muslims really are similar to the Borg or Necromongers of sci fi fame.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    This is a good point, and a scary one too. Were the second generation Muslims recruited by radical Muslims or did their parents instill the radical nature in them while pretending to assimilate?

    Muslims really are similar to the Borg or Necromongers of sci fi fame.
    Interesting you should suggest this... I kinda figured the Borg was a reference to the Muslim issue by the writers of the series. Remember the two part shows in 'Next Generation' where Picard was taken into the Borg for a while... IMO that could have easily been made into a movie.

    Personally, I think our society in the USA is a little too free... What I mean is; there are not guidelines or foundational views to bond the nation together. There is really nothing "American" about living here, other than demanding my rights and living off the govt.

    What we need IMO are some basics one has to agree to, to live and work here... Kinda like Rome: Roman citizens had to renounce their former lives and swear alliance to Rome... or they were 'little people'. Where I am going with this is folks that live in America are not 'for' America, they are only here to get what they can. What we need is for folks to become part of America, or not be here. Remember the old 'united we stand...' stuff... well maybe that is not so old fashioned... just maybe there is some truth there we need to re-learn.

    Thoughts?
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    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

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