Guaranteed Performance - Page 3
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  1. #27
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    Dec 2002
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    Toledo, Ohio, United States
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    What is there last name and street, I'll be gald to check for you. Are they complainers like you. I bet they didn't act like you or I wouldn't have even left them any literature.

    If it was me tell them to call the BBB and I'll be happy to arbitrate any problem that I can't solve over the phone or in person.
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Suppy NC
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    4,513
    i think doc is correct on this
    we install them and should do what ever is nessasary to have the system working within manufactors specks. or at least as close as possible. quality work means quality job
    and good work pratice and lay out and design will give good results as we all know
    if the coustomer is willing to pay for this quality then he should recieve nothing less and our responsabilty is to give him what he is paying for
    just my feelings

  3. #29
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    Dec 2002
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    Toledo, Ohio, United States
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    There you go, Tinknocker will take your job.
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Central Kentucky
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    6,247
    Originally posted by reddog4
    I am guessing that because very few understand the question that they most likely don't have the skills to properly install,test,tune a system corrctly? I did not say anything about guaranteed savings. I am familiar with degree days and cost of fuel. I just want a contractor that can prove the system installed in my house is performing within 10% of it's Mfg. ratings. I have been told that about 1% of all contractors have this ability and I am trying to find one here in the southern part of Wisconsin.I find it hard to believe that this an unjustifiable request to a seemingly uncomplicated istallation.
    reddog,there are contractors who do the type of testing you are looking for.
    This is how we conduct business by performance testing the systems we install.
    This is normally done with an airflow hood,thermometers, combustion analyzers & other test equipment
    The request that you are making for your contractor is very valid,if he does not test the work he installs there is no way of knowing that the design has been achieved.
    A proper load calculation & duct design are not enough, the system needs to be tested to insure BTU's are being delivered where they are needed & in the proper quantities.
    When this has been done then you can have the assurance your system is operating as designed.



    [Edited by davidr on 05-20-2005 at 05:30 PM]
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  5. #31
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    Mar 2005
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    Suppy NC
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    Originally posted by twilli3967
    There you go, Tinknocker will take your job.
    hehheheheheh your killing me

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    249
    Originally posted by twilli3967
    I bet your right, in fact I bet "you" won't be able to find even one. I bet if you get even close and they get you figured out the price will be so high your ass cheeks will pucker and you'll rule them out for some reason.

    Why are you so worried about all this crap? Run a manual J, find a contrator have them install the equipment, pay for it and get on with your life, or find a support group for people who's hvac equipment that doesn't match up to the advertised specs.

    File a class action suit against the manufacture of the Hvac equipment. Retire to somewhere around the equator where you may not need hvac equipment.

    Don't call me.
    rDog,

    WOW!!!

    Now you know who not to call.S/he can't perform the work needed,sad part is it's a 50 year old company,and probably has a good name.I'd bet the mfrs. reps.,spend a lot of time on their jobs,although they'll denie it here.

    Now wonder homeowners ,have no idea what comfort and efficiency they could have,if they only asked for what you did.

    Don't give up,post your city and state ,maybe someone will know a good company, with real world experience.


  7. #33

    Post Performance Test

    Originally posted by reddog4
    I am guessing that because very few understand the question that they most likely don't have the skills to properly install,test,tune a system corrctly? I did not say anything about guaranteed savings. I am familiar with degree days and cost of fuel. I just want a contractor that can prove the system installed in my house is performing within 10% of it's Mfg. ratings. I have been told that about 1% of all contractors have this ability and I am trying to find one here in the southern part of Wisconsin.I find it hard to believe that this an unjustifiable request to a seemingly uncomplicated istallation.
    It's not hard to believe at all you come across as a future chronic pain in the ass... I'd be giving you the same static...

    Performance Testing is not that uncommon, we have customers you specifiy a Performane and Air Balance Test. However, they are usually commerical and it's the archetect makign the request.

    I think your want more than your willing to pay for... A proper and complete performance test is going to cost some bucks. I am quite happy with myown HVAC System in my own home and cannot think of a single reason I would require such information.

    But the human mind is a funny think...
    AllTemp Heating & Cooling

  8. #34
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    7

    Re: Performance Test

    Originally posted by AllTemp
    Originally posted by reddog4
    I am guessing that because very few understand the question that they most likely don't have the skills to properly install,test,tune a system corrctly? I did not say anything about guaranteed savings. I am familiar with degree days and cost of fuel. I just want a contractor that can prove the system installed in my house is performing within 10% of it's Mfg. ratings. I have been told that about 1% of all contractors have this ability and I am trying to find one here in the southern part of Wisconsin.I find it hard to believe that this an unjustifiable request to a seemingly uncomplicated istallation.
    It's not hard to believe at all you come across as a future chronic pain in the ass... I'd be giving you the same static...

    Performance Testing is not that uncommon, we have customers you specifiy a Performane and Air Balance Test. However, they are usually commerical and it's the archetect makign the request.

    I think your want more than your willing to pay for... A proper and complete performance test is going to cost some bucks. I am quite happy with myown HVAC System in my own home and cannot think of a single reason I would require such information.

    But the human mind is a funny think...
    It sounds like some of you are on the same page? MOST are not,they are a few chapters behind or is that bricks shy
    (twilli)? So if I settle on a 90+ furnace I should see something around 82% efficiency? and I buy a 3 ton A/C unit I should be getting around 2.5 tons of air conditioning maybe a little more out of this equipment? Money is not an issue,my comfort is.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
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    7,680

    Re: Re: Performance Test

    Originally posted by reddog4
    It sounds like some of you are on the same page? MOST are not,they are a few chapters behind or is that bricks shy (twilli)? So if I settle on a 90+ furnace I should see something around 82% efficiency? and I buy a 3 ton A/C unit I should be getting around 2.5 tons of air conditioning maybe a little more out of this equipment? Money is not an issue,my comfort is.
    If anyone here agrees to any of what you just said, they are simply telling you what you want to hear.

    90+ means 90% efficiency, or rather 90% of the amount of btuhs going in versus what you get that comes out in the form of heat to your space. It doesnt refer to anything regarding your gas bill. There are other forces at work that need to be adderessed long before any garuntee of savings can be considered. Its possible your bill could go up, it happens.

    Also, a 4 SEER 36,000 btuh ac makes the same amount of cooling as does a 14 SEER 36,000 btuh a/c.

    Your understanding of efficiency is so far misguided, its going to hurt you more than it helps. You really should listen and spend your energy looking for a reputable contractor in your area and allow him to help you slelect the system that is right for you rather than plotting to find a way to get around paying for a system.

    Just a little advice but if you start with this garbage up front, you'll probably runn the better contracotrs off and just hit a hungry hack at the right time. Any hack will promise you 80% efficiency from a 90+ furnace and 2.5 tons of cooling from a 3 ton unit.

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    4H: Hot, Humid Houston H.O.
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    3,304

    Expectations

    I've gotta say Reddog, that you are asking for a whole lot and the residential business is not prepared to deal with exactly what you want. You have my sympathies, I am a homeowner (HO) too and not a pro, but in order to do business you have to have a willing buyer and a willing seller.

    One problem with energy savings is, only the commercial business is usually willing to deal realistically with the calculations needed to measure it. It will require degree days but also much more than that. Since almost no HO's can comprehend how to do a realistic comparison, you would expect there to be no businesses based on that. Too much math required. The most promising thing I hear is the performance evaluation of a residential AC system -- if you can buy that from a company, the chances are improved they can deliver the 1st-class job I know you want. You probably would benefit by asking a company to do Manual J and Manual D calcs too, if they can do that their (intellectual) skill level is higher. Definitely expect to pay for these services, however if you buy big equipment from that company they might subtract that from the total.

    Regarding SEER, do not forget it is a lab test and your real world will not follow lab conditions, so you cannot expect SEER claims to be reliable.

    In my opinion you would do well to lower your expectations to a mere "Cadillac" level of system. Right now it sounds like a Rolls-Royce. I genuinely wish you and I could get what you ask for, I just don't think it is a good fit to the businesses out there.

    Best of luck -- P.Student

    P.S. I was guilty of mis-reading the original post, thinking it was for a guarantee of savings. Now that I read it again, it was just for a measurement to guarantee it performs well, i.e. the customer gets what he paid for. That ought to be alot easier to accomplish, as some of the pros have said. In my opinion it would be worth paying extra for.

    [Edited by perpetual_student on 05-23-2005 at 10:15 PM]

  11. #37
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    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, United States
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    reddog4

    You see many people seem to agree with me, even though they may have been a little less harsh, it is not my intention to offend you.

    Some people pointed out our longevity in this business and it's true we have been in business a long time, and we would laugh if you called us and asked us what your asking here. Quite simply we wouldn't respond to your request.

    We do "no" commercial work at all, we are residential hvac and electrical contactors. We do only about 2-8 new houses a year and they have to seek us out and we spend about 5 minutes initially looking at there plan ask them are they willing to spend $bigdollars and do they want a custom system.

    I guess my point to you as well as what others have conveyed is to find someone who is well recommended and will do a load cal and look at your duct work, find out about your lifestyle and what you expect from your system and don't nickel and dime them to death.

    I would recommend that you take a look a the Rheem Mod furnace and maybe a 12 seer A/C, maybe a zoned system if your house or duct work will support it or give consideration to having the duct system redone.

    I think it is reasonable to ask the contractor for mulitple names of people that they have done similar jobs for.

    We give out a list of customers with about 100 names on it that have indicated from our customer completion survey that their name can be added to our list.

    You are being to technical for most residentail contractors.

    We do have a few contractors in Toledo that make some guarantees about even temps throughout the house which to me is reasonable.

    We deal almost 100% with retrofit applications and most of the time we are just replacing the existing unit, we do explore with the customer if they have any area in the home that are hard to heat or cool.

    Keep searching if you so desire but I, as well as others have given you some good advice.


    Fl1.....
    WOW!!!

    Now you know who not to call.S/he can't perform the work needed,sad part is it's a 50 year old company,and probably has a good name.I'd bet the mfrs. reps.,spend a lot of time on their jobs,although they'll denie it here.

    Now wonder homeowners ,have no idea what comfort and efficiency they could have,if they only asked for what you did.

    Don't give up,post your city and state ,maybe someone will know a good company, with real world experience.


    Yes we deny it. Why after 50 years do we need to call the Manfacures Reps? Most of the time we know more about the equipment than they do. We deal with Robertson supply in Toledo and you may feel free to call them and speak with the branch manager and ask them when was the last time we had an issue with an installation of Rheem equipment.

    Do we ask questions? Sure. Your and idiot if you don't. But we don't have any issues.

    In fact the last time I even remotely had to turn to them was on a two stage counterflow furnace that kept triping limit, after checking all the temps, gas pressure etc...I determined the limit was bad, replaced tripped new limit, tripped it, went to the dist and was talking to their tech rep about my problem when "I" discovered what the problem was. The Manufacture had installed the wrong limit, so of course I replaced it with the same wrong limit. While talikng to him on the phone and listening to some of his BS I saw in the manual the limit temps and immediately new the limit was wrong. Pointed that out to the counter guy, got the right limit, no more problems.

    I'm not in denial.





    [Edited by twilli3967 on 05-23-2005 at 07:29 PM]
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  12. #38
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    Aug 2003
    Location
    Central Kentucky
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    I don't see the request reddog4 is making as being unreasonable,he wants to be sure his system is working as designed.
    This is just the way I see it but it looks to me like he just wants proof that he is getting what he is paying for,not a guaranteed savings on utility bills.
    You can run Manual J & D calculations all day long this still does not prove the system is doing what we say it is going to once it is installed & running.
    Even if he has the equipment installed to what Manual J requires that still is no guarantee it is actually delivering BTU's properly into the building envelope.
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  13. #39
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    Sep 2002
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    Proving the actual installed operating capacity of a furnace and or an AC system is not all that difficult and does not require a great deal of time or effort. However, I would charge extra for the service and would include it as a special item in the bid.

    Proving the actual operating efficiency of the system is a little more complex but can also be accomplished.

    Be careful here as there is a difference between operating capacity and efficiency. In addition, there is a difference between the combustion efficiency of the furnace and the overall operating efficiency.

    Some of these items or tests could fall under what is termed "commissioning", which means different things to different people.

    Commercial jobs that are "commissioned" and/or air balanced usually have a different contractor perform those functions rather than the installing contractor. Do you want the installing contractor to also be the commissioning contractor?

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