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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    To be more specific. The contractor is responsible for his work and the equipment and if there is a probelm with performance, then he is the one to properly troublshoot and repair it. If the unit is not performing there is something wrong with either the installation or a componant in the system and if so, it is the contractors responsibility to make it right. How he makes a claim if something is wrong with the equipment part is between he and the distributor or mfg.

    There are contractors who do gaurentee savings but it is clearly spelled out in their agreement that they make the system right and at the first sign of hesitence by the owner over work that needs done such as new ducts, duct sealing, proper refrigerant lines, insulation, clearnaces around the outdoor section (the list goes on)...or they come to where the customer doesnt want to spend the money to have it corrected, the deal is off. These guys aren cheap and dont even get into the bidding game, they dictate how it will be done and if everyone agrees, the deal is on.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    241

    Post

    Originally posted by jdenyer

    Me too! Many homeowners go by dollar value of their energy bills only and do not take into consideration that energy prices have gone up a lot over the last year. Also weather is not the same from year to year and this needs to be taken into account.
    But then do you claim that new hi-eff equipment increases the value of customer property? If you made this claim and equipment performs not as good, it is a lie.

    I really doubt that 20SEER a/c will do anything to property value in the first place. (I think the way Lenox 20SEER equipment works, is it just sooo big, that seer savings come from blocking house from sun light. )

  3. #16
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    7
    I am guessing that because very few understand the question that they most likely don't have the skills to properly install,test,tune a system corrctly? I did not say anything about guaranteed savings. I am familiar with degree days and cost of fuel. I just want a contractor that can prove the system installed in my house is performing within 10% of it's Mfg. ratings. I have been told that about 1% of all contractors have this ability and I am trying to find one here in the southern part of Wisconsin.I find it hard to believe that this an unjustifiable request to a seemingly uncomplicated istallation.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Gone
    Posts
    5,340
    Originally posted by millerman

    And after all that, you get someone giving you all you want, free load calc, free duct design and hours of free labor only to have the HO go with the low baller who now has our designs.
    You don't give them the load or design until you have a signed contract in hand. You can explain everything without telling them what size your load says. Free load if you want to give away your time for free, does not mean they get the load and design for free.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    Originally posted by reddog4
    I am guessing that because very few understand the question that they most likely don't have the skills to properly install,test,tune a system corrctly? I did not say anything about guaranteed savings. I am familiar with degree days and cost of fuel. I just want a contractor that can prove the system installed in my house is performing within 10% of it's Mfg. ratings. I have been told that about 1% of all contractors have this ability and I am trying to find one here in the southern part of Wisconsin.I find it hard to believe that this an unjustifiable request to a seemingly uncomplicated istallation.

    http://www.nationalcomfortinstitute.com contractors trained to verify performance.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    The unit if properly installed will perform. SEER is not a measurable rating outside of a lab. Exact conditions are used to achieve these numbers as an even playing field between units. Apples to apples, a higher efficiency unit will cost less to operate than a lower seer with the same standard of installation.

    You as the cutomer hire the contractor. Nobody else can be part of that decision or the result.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    1,209
    Originally posted by madeinusa
    Originally posted by millerman

    And after all that, you get someone giving you all you want, free load calc, free duct design and hours of free labor only to have the HO go with the low baller who now has our designs.
    You don't give them the load or design until you have a signed contract in hand. You can explain everything without telling them what size your load says. Free load if you want to give away your time for free, does not mean they get the load and design for free.
    Alot of bids here are done with the utilities and you must supply a load calc and design for their approval. Then the homeowner chooses which approved bid he wants.
    I agree with you on not giving it away however, many homeowners like to see this in writing. As far as the Lennox 20 SEER is concerned, is that a one size only unit? I believe Carrier is doing the same with their high SEER unit, all for marketing purposes though and only one size available.
    As far as check out on completion, if all is installed as per manufacturers instruction all should be ok as far as rated SEER is concerned. We do whats called a check me on units that measures pressures temps air flows, we take those readings and call them into an engineering firm that tells the tech whether or not the charge and air flow is correct for that specific design (this is also a utility requirement and state requirement for rebates). We also contract an outside agency to check duct leakage, this ensures its all done correctly.
    Proud supporter of Springfield Millers and Oregon Ducks.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    483
    Originally posted by browntigerus
    Originally posted by jdenyer

    Me too! Many homeowners go by dollar value of their energy bills only and do not take into consideration that energy prices have gone up a lot over the last year. Also weather is not the same from year to year and this needs to be taken into account.
    But then do you claim that new hi-eff equipment increases the value of customer property? If you made this claim and equipment performs not as good, it is a lie.

    I really doubt that 20SEER a/c will do anything to property value in the first place. (I think the way Lenox 20SEER equipment works, is it just sooo big, that seer savings come from blocking house from sun light. )
    I personally never make claims that high efficiency equipment adds value to someones home. I'm not a real estate agent and have no desire to be one Definatly agree with ya on the size issues of these super high efficiency units. Fortunatly living in Maine there is not a high demand for high efficiency A/C. The 13SEER minimum coming into effect is bad enough.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    172
    We always offer the texas warranty on everything we sell and install. Excerpt from the legalize "if it breaks in two pieces both pieces are still yours"
    When you give a lesson in meanness to a critter or a person, don't be surprised if they learn their lesson.

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    Lol

  11. #24
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    7
    Originally posted by joho
    Originally posted by reddog4
    That's the reason I have come to this site in the first place. I have checked with freinds and neighbors already and most are disappointed with the hvac contractors in the area and disappointed with the performance of the equipment. How can I trust a contractor who won't guarantee his work? According to your reply I shuold be satisfied with whatever I get stuck with.
    I'm not a professional, just another homeowner who attempts to educate myself in order to make informed decisions on the products and services I buy. I beg to differ with you in that I don't agree that you can hold the contractor solely responsible for the performance of the system. You can certainly help yourself by searching for a contractor who has a strong reputation, but the end result also depends on whether the equipment itself performs. Even if installed properly, sometimes good equipment will fail or underperform. Is it fair to the contractor to have to eat the loss if they made a good faith effort to properly install it? If something goes wrong, my expectation of a quality contractor is that they will continue to try and improve this situation to the degree they can impact it.
    So what you are saying is that if you buy a car from a reputable dealer and it is supposed to get 30 miles to the gallon but it only gets 15 I have no recourse because he buys it from the manufacture and can't guarantee it's performance(dec?). It must be my fault because I don't drive it right? You are the consumer businesses just love. I am sorry but I have read that if equipment is installed properly it will perform correctly.If it isn't performing correctly then the install is not proper is it? I guess with my research so far I am not convinced that their are enough contractors that know how to install and adjust equipment properly.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, United States
    Posts
    12,910
    I bet your right, in fact I bet "you" won't be able to find even one. I bet if you get even close and they get you figured out the price will be so high your ass cheeks will pucker and you'll rule them out for some reason.

    Why are you so worried about all this crap? Run a manual J, find a contrator have them install the equipment, pay for it and get on with your life, or find a support group for people who's hvac equipment that doesn't match up to the advertised specs.

    File a class action suit against the manufacture of the Hvac equipment. Retire to somewhere around the equator where you may not need hvac equipment.

    Don't call me.
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  13. #26
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    7
    Originally posted by twilli3967
    I bet your right, in fact I bet "you" won't be able to find even one. I bet if you get even close and they get you figured out the price will be so high your ass cheeks will pucker and you'll rule them out for some reason.

    Why are you so worried about all this crap? Run a manual J, find a contrator have them install the equipment, pay for it and get on with your life, or find a support group for people who's hvac equipment that doesn't match up to the advertised specs.

    File a class action suit against the manufacture of the Hvac equipment. Retire to somewhere around the equator where you may not need hvac equipment.

    Don't call me.

    I don't live in Toledo but I have relatives living there that are totally upset with their systems. Sounds like you may have been the installing contractor.This is the same response they got when their system didn't perform.

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