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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
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    654
    Is Puron (R410A) more efficient than R22? Local A/C contractor I spoke with says model for model (scroll compressor in each), the Puron unit is more efficient than the R22 equivalent unit. My understanding is since 410A works at higher pressures, it is actually more expensive to run than an R22 unit. The contractor responded by saying the 410A refrigerant is more efficient than R22 and therefore 410A units are less costly to run. He did say it takes less R410A to do the same job R22 would need, is that true too? Now I'm confused. Gurus?...what do you say?


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
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    340
    See my reply (next post).

    Boss: How come the delete post feature doesn't work any more?

    [Edited by travisfl on 05-17-2005 at 12:57 PM]

  3. #3
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    Originally posted by casturbo
    Is Puron (R410A) more efficient than R22?
    I'm not a guru, but my research says that R-410A is theoretically about 5% more efficient than R-22 in a properly designed system.

    http://www.ammagazine.com/CDA/Articl...,27016,00.html

    However, real life experience says differently. When I recently installed a Trane 2.5T heat pump I was surprised to discover that while the XR12 R-410A system pair had equivalent cooling SEER (13.00) it also had a lower HSPF (8.1 vs 8.8) than the equivalent R-22 pair. You can check the performance of your contractor's recommended systems at ARI Primenet.

    http://www.ariprimenet.org/

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
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    How efficient a refrigerant is at moving heat around is determined more by its physical properties rather than it's operating pressures. Such physical properties includes latent heat of vaporazation, latent heat of condensation, density, etc. When one pound of R410a evaporates it absorbs more heat than the same weight of R22. So in the lab R410a is far more efficient than R22. In a practical system R410a is more efficient but not to the degree that one would think. I believe I read somewhere that 5-10% more efficent in a properly installed system. Unless your electric rates are really high 5% isn't gonna make that much of a difference. Let's say you pay $1000 a year in cooling costs with an R22 system. Now let's say a R410a system cost $2000 more than the R22 system. The R410a system is 5% more efficient. By going with the R410a sytem you save $50 a year on your cooling costs. It would take 40 years to get a payback on your $2000 "upgrade". If your luck you might get 20-25 years out of your new system. In this case you would never recoup your investment. There are other reasons to go with R410a, a 5-10% energy savings isn't one of them. Hope this helps.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
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    Originally posted by jdenyer
    Now let's say a R410a system cost $2000 more than the R22 system. The R410a system is 5% more efficient. By going with the R410a sytem you save $50 a year on your cooling costs.
    And you lose opportunity cost on the $2000 investment (or conversely, you have to pay interest on the $2000 if you borrow it). Let's say the average person borrows the $2000 in a home equity loan for 7%. The annual interest cost would be $140, or a net loss of $90 when compared to the $50 savings of the R-410A system.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
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    We currently pay less for R410a than R22 systems ,in comparable SEER and cabinetry,3 to 5% less.So why not go with Puron.

    [Edited by dash on 05-17-2005 at 02:55 PM]

  7. #7
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    Originally posted by dash
    We currently pay less for R410a than R22 systems ,in comparable SEER and cabinetry,3 to 55 less.So why not go with Puron.
    If he can get R410a for the same cost he would be a fool not too do it

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
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    This paper suggests that R410a loses capacity and efficiency faster than R22 as the outdoor temperature rises.

    http://www.bfrl.nist.gov/863/HVAC/pu...nt%20tests.pdf

    Maybe you could argue R410a is better for cooler climates and R22 better for hotter climates.

  9. #9
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    Jan 2005
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    340
    Originally posted by go_redskins
    This paper suggests that R410a loses capacity and efficiency faster than R22 as the outdoor temperature rises.
    It would be very interesting to see a comparison at the low end of the temperature range in a heat pump application.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Florida
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    Lets see:

    R-22 38YRA036 w/ FK4BNF003 13 Seer HSPF=8 TC 34,800
    Puron 38YZA036 w/ FV4ANF003 13.5 Seer HSPF=8.2 TC 34,000

    It looks like there is a slight increase in efficiency, but note the reduction in total cooling.



    [Edited by dhanna on 05-17-2005 at 04:20 PM]

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
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    Originally posted by dhanna
    Lets see:

    R-22 38YRA036 w/ FK4BNF003 13 Seer HSPF=8 TC 34,800
    Puron 38YZA036 w/ FV4ANF003 13.5 Seer HSPF=8.2 TC 34,000

    It looks like there is a slight increase in efficiency, but note the reduction in total cooling.
    The way SEER is calculated assumes a single climate with temperatures that are more suited for R410a. The paper on the other hand was comparing R22 and R410a at different temperatures and found that as temperature rises, R410a loses both efficiency and capacity faster than R22. So I wouldn't simply say R410a or R22 is more efficient. It depends on the climate. And that's only for cooling. I haven't read anything comparing their heating efficiencies/capacities.

  12. #12
    Join Date
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    Florida
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    Originally posted by go_redskins
    Originally posted by dhanna
    Lets see:

    R-22 38YRA036 w/ FK4BNF003 13 Seer HSPF=8 TC 34,800
    Puron 38YZA036 w/ FV4ANF003 13.5 Seer HSPF=8.2 TC 34,000

    It looks like there is a slight increase in efficiency, but note the reduction in total cooling.
    The way SEER is calculated assumes a single climate with temperatures that are more suited for R410a. The paper on the other hand was comparing R22 and R410a at different temperatures and found that as temperature rises, R410a loses both efficiency and capacity faster than R22. So I wouldn't simply say R410a or R22 is more efficient. It depends on the climate. And that's only for cooling. I haven't read anything comparing their heating efficiencies/capacities.
    Can I use eer instead? We always look at the seer rating around here. The HSPF is the heating efficiency I'll add the heating capacity too.

    R-22 38YRA036 w/ FK4BNF003 11.05 eer TC 34,800
    HSPF=8 TC Heating 35,600
    Puron 38YZA036 w/ FV4ANF003 11.75 eer TC 34,000
    HSPF=8.2 TC Heating 35,200

  13. #13
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    go_redskins

    I totally missed your original post until just now. You bring up a good point. I'll read that article a little later when I get the time.

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