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  1. #14
    Join Date
    May 2002
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    9,564
    The only problems are they license the $@#( out of it and nobody else really makes their own implementation. So, not too open.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    W 7750, xl 10. Basically unitary controllers like vav, heat pump, rooftop. Any devices under a zone manager. Xl 50, 80, 100, 500, 600, 800 are different. Do a search or contact me for more clarification
    our system is fairly simple. Each of our DDC cabinet consist of XCL5010 (with XDL505D Module, it does have a LonWorks logo on it) and bunch of XFL521, XFL522, XFL523 and XFL524... all of them are monitoring/controlling differential pressures, temperature/humidity, and actuators and VFDs.

    Thats about it. Now based on that can we figure out what is c-bus and e-bus?

    Thank you

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    318
    The XCL5010 can talk C-bus or Lon. It's the CPU and is proprietary in that it has to be programmed with the CARE tool.

    The XFL's are just dumb Lon I/O. The XCL5010 could be thrown away, and any controller that can use Lon I/O substituted. Many of us would say that a JACE is the way to do that, but there are other Lon controllers that could also.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    Quote Originally Posted by zer0 View Post
    our system is fairly simple. Each of our DDC cabinet consist of XCL5010 (with XDL505D Module, it does have a LonWorks logo on it) and bunch of XFL521, XFL522, XFL523 and XFL524... all of them are monitoring/controlling differential pressures, temperature/humidity, and actuators and VFDs.

    Thats about it. Now based on that can we figure out what is c-bus and e-bus?

    Thank you
    http://www.honeywell.be/DocsAdobePDF...5010_sd_EN.pdf

    The XL50 is a Cbus device that can have a LON module. What happens is that Hwell has some restrictions- to make the long story short you only get so many LON variables out of the 50. This also means they do not accept certain LON variable types such as dynamic. Further, there is some LON command sets to be aware of. Anyway, what I'm driving at is you don't just slam a replacement box on this unless you know where you want to go and where you are. I have had some convert this type of install over to Loytec LINX already so it works. There are some inherent benefits as the LINX supports more address tables for binding than standard LON devices.

    So again it comes back to what you are doing and where you want to go. Broken record? Probably so but you aren't giving me enough to go on with your firms abilities or needs. Maybe you need to throw nothing away but simply get to the data easier.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    33
    Thank you for reply,

    Purpose of our system is to monitor and control temperature and humidity in the rooms, and monitor differential pressure in the same rooms, it controls the temperature by adjusting heating coils, and fresh air dampers etc, same with humidity.

    we monitor all this with SymmetrE ( I would really like to use another software as this one is pain in the butt )

    What I'm trying to determine is if some of my XFL modules or XCL modules die. What are my options? do i have to get identical controller/modules to replace? even if opt for the newer xcl8010A that requires CARE 8 to program which is expensive on it own.

    There are still some points I would like to integrate into the DDCs, such as pumps (ABB VFDs) boilers, chillers, more temperature and humidity sensors, some more pressure transmitters and thinking about expanding the system...

    I hope this info helps... please let me know if further info is required.

    Thank you

  6. #19
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    Everything is an investment. For instance we sell a very powerful controller with free software. Open protocols. Can communicate with your LON I/O modules but not your XL50 unless it has the LON module in it. Even with this module in the XL50 you don't have access to many points. Just the points you bring out are available (still need CARE). However, you still need to learn this device.

    With proprietary or partial proprietary always it comes down to this point where you have to decide whether or not you want to break free or not. Well, initially it is going to sting. There is no magic bullet to break your proprietary or semi-proprietary contract. Sometimes this contract is a proprietary protocol. Other times you get the open protocol and a proprietary framework and licensing to keep your attention. Freedom has a cost.

    Let's identify your problems as you have stated:
    • The controllers now are too expensive.
    • The programming software is too expensive.
    • Adding I/O is too expensive.
    • Monitoring workstation is a "pain in the butt".


    For the first three you need to shop around and compare costs and longer term costs on hardware that can do what you want. If this hardware can use some of your existing I/O that's a plus. I can tell you those type of products exist. Are these less expensive? Well, that depends on the product and how much you are buying or will buy. It depends on the manufacturer, distributor or contractor being willing to even sell to you.

    Your last one has no criteria attached to it so I can't help you with that one. Further, I don't know if you simply don't understand it or if the workstation is that difficult to navigate.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    33
    you are right sysint. we have absolutely no training on the system, everything that i know i figured out by playing with it.

    When our control contractor passed away his firm went out of business. Last year when one of my controller died i went through hell to buy one because no one was willing to sell it to me, i dont understand why.

    So I guess i'm just panicking and thinking which road to take up ahead when time comes to upgrade/replace ddc

  8. #21
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    OK. This is more helpful.

    Well, the industry is moving to more features in the controllers. So, automatic device backup, AST (alarm schedule trend) and visualization are starting to be built into devices. Since the modules LON probably you can migrate your system.

    However, programming is not easy for those who have never done it. Do you have the documentation files from the Hwell controllers including the CARE diagrams? This may be helpful for you. Do you understand CARE? If so, then I'd say migration goes much easier for you.

    Start planning now. I'd avoid paid licensing as much as possible and contracts for anything you get. Otherwise you will be back to where you are now.

    If you want to PM or email your details I can give you a more extensive plan according to the way I used to handle these type of situations.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    OK. This is more helpful.

    Well, the industry is moving to more features in the controllers. So, automatic device backup, AST (alarm schedule trend) and visualization are starting to be built into devices. Since the modules LON probably you can migrate your system.

    However, programming is not easy for those who have never done it. Do you have the documentation files from the Hwell controllers including the CARE diagrams? This may be helpful for you. Do you understand CARE? If so, then I'd say migration goes much easier for you.

    Start planning now. I'd avoid paid licensing as much as possible and contracts for anything you get. Otherwise you will be back to where you are now.

    If you want to PM or email your details I can give you a more extensive plan according to the way I used to handle these type of situations.

    I have programming experience like C,C++,visual basic, etc not so much as PLCs though I am studying it in my free time.

    I have the CARE software and our project file. I just need to study more to familiarize myself with it.

    Its weird, I am unable to send private messages.

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,415
    Quote Originally Posted by zer0 View Post
    XFL521, XFL522, XFL523 and XFL524... .... Now based on that can we figure out what is c-bus and e-bus?

    XFL ... the 'L' = Lon
    1 + 1 = 3 ( *** for very large values of 1)

    ...everybody wants a box of chocolates and long stemmed rose

  11. #24
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    Quote Originally Posted by zer0 View Post
    I have programming experience like C,C++,visual basic, etc not so much as PLCs though I am studying it in my free time. I have the CARE software and our project file. I just need to study more to familiarize myself with it.
    Its weird, I am unable to send private messages.
    Our controllers support IEC 61131-3. So, C is one of your program options. You can also use Structured Text which is like VB. CARE is more like a dedicated Function Block method. Even if it is convenient you can utilize C, still you need to have a good idea how equipment runs and what to (and not) do.

    Controller

    Programming IEC 61131-3
    Custom programming sequences can be designed using the graphical L-logiCAD software. The included programming languages are Function
    Block Diagram (FBD), Structured Text (ST), Ladder Diagram (LD), Sequential Function Chart (SFC), and C.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    33

    Great

    This is great information. Controller seems powerful enough to hand bunch of tasks. Are the parts easy to get?

    I will propose this to upper management and see what they say, maybe they will consider migrating in the near future.

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