R-22 or Puron

[georgiaho]

Looking to replace my existing 3 ton Ruud unit. Installed in 1989, it's seen better days. It was a high efficiency unit back then!

I have a buddy in the HVAC industry and we trade work for work. He has quoted me two similar systems at his cost. The first is a Carrier 38YRA036-3 with a FK4CNF005000 variable speed air handler. This is the R-22 unit.

According to Carrier's product data sheet, matching this AH with a 42-31 unit gets a 14 seer with a 12.10 eer and a seasonal efficiency of 8.20 but their ratings don't show the exact combination quoted. They do show a FK4NCNF003 that will get 13 seer, 11.25 and 8.0.

The second unit is a Carrier 38YXA036-3 with a FX4BNF036000 variable speed hair handler. This is the Puron unit. According to Carrier's own product data sheet, matching this AH with this units gets a 13 seer with a 10.75 eer and a seasonal efficiency of 8.5.

The R-22 unit is only a couple of hundred dollars less than the Puron unit and on the surface looks to be more efficient. Which is the better unit and why?

[Wild Leg]

What does your "buddy" think about it?

[georgiaho]

Of course the decision is mine, his suggestion is to go with the R-22 solution. He believes that even with the phase out of R-22 and even with the scare tactics of the industry as to how much R-22 will cost (when compared with the same R-12 situation *the sky is falling*), that R-22 service will still be affordable and drop-ins will be available.

On the other hand he believes that Puron is more efficient. The numbers just don't show it and spending a couple of hundred dollars more for Puron equipment when both have similar warranty's just doesn't make 'cents'.

So I come here asking for more advice from the experts.

[tecman]

The manufacturers are pushing "Puron" or it's generic equal R410A, since they have no choice in the future, and the quicker that they can run one version only in production, the cheaper and better it is for them.

Puron (R410A) has a greater cooling capacity than R22, which can be an advantage in equipment size, but it operates at 50% to 70% higher pressures than R22. The higher pressures require systems to be "beefed up" for strength. Some feel that the higher pressures are more likely to develop leaks and other failures, but a well designed and installed system should be no different than an R22.

The choice today is really moot. R22 will be available for a long, long time, and it's new equipment phase out should not be a factor in which to buy. If you are a hard core environmentalist and think you might develop a leak in the unit during it's lifetime, that would be a decision factor.

I would still stick with R22 today, only because it is a well proven, mature technology.

paul

[dash]

We have installed over 2000 Puron/R410a systems,since 1997,it's a proven product,IMHO.

check out http://www.410a.com for more info..

[duct dr]

Puron is nothing more than Carrier's name for R410a. R410a is actually AZ-20, made by Honeywell (aka)Allied Signal. R410a is a much better product than R22. And even though R22 will still be available after 2010, the equipment won't. I would choose the R410a system, you'll be happy with it.

[beenthere]

Puron has no determining factor in size of equipment.

If your house requires 3 tons, with a r22 system, then it'll need 3 tons with a puron system.

We haven't installed as many as Dash, but we have no troubles with them either.

[a/c-harris]

Puron (r-410a) is good, but unfortunetly Carriers Evaporator coils arent so good, IMHO. So if you are getting a Carrier, go with R22, the indoor coil will handle the pressures better. Maybe Im just mad at Carrier right now, but I feel that way. If you want 410a with some other brand, then go for it.

[Special Ed]

Puron. Go Puron. But don't choose Carrier/Bryant.

Is that FX AHU part of the new "communicating" system?

[phosgene]

choose Carrier. choose Puron. choose Infinity. choose a quality investment.

[dave_slo]

What does the guy who is installing this equipment for you install the most of? Puron, aka R410a, requires greater attention to good installation practices. The system MUST be clean, and MUST be moisture free. Now that should be he same for an R22 unit, but an R22 unit is more "forgiving" than R410a. This is where experiance comes in. If he has a lot of R410a installs under his belt, you should be safe with R410a. If he has only installed a couple, go with what he knows best, R22. Another thing to remember, unless this guy can give you a waranty, and thats not likely if this is a side job for him, you are more limited on who can work successfully on R410a than R22. Something to think about if you have to pay warranty labor.

[Irishmist]

My question is quite simple: Why don't you trust your "buddy's" recommendation? You are trusting him to install your system that you hope to have up and running for many years to come, and I assume provide you with service as well. If that is who is going to bear that responsibility to the system and to YOU, then HIS recommendations and opinions are really the only ones that matter. Just curious as to what 'work' you trade to him for his hvac expertise. IF you trust your buddy, then our opinions are secondary to his. IF you aren't 100% sure about his recommendations, then call a qualified contractor and have them do all the is proper and necessary, i.e. calculate a load, look at your air distribution system, etc. Seem like a lot? Yeah, it may seem that way, but if, and I emphasize IF a mistake was made 14 - 15 years ago in capacity, etc., then simply replacing with same unit will only duplicate the mistake made then, and not give you the efficiency you desire.

[dash]

Originally posted by special ed
Puron. Go Puron. But don't choose Carrier/Bryant.

Is that FX AHU part of the new "communicating" system?

FE is the Infinity air handler.


FX isn't variable speed but the FK is,so if you go with Puron,go with a FE or at least a FV ,both are are variable speed.

[Edited by dash on 05-11-2005 at 09:24 AM]

[dash]

I think the original poster is doing the right thing by getting opinions other than his buddies.Trust but verify,no reason not to.

[klyons20]

I say stick with R-22 system.. If it is insatll right it should run 15 years without a problem..

Preasures are a little to high with the 401..

regards,
kelvin

[docholiday]

Who uses pressures?

Maybe I'll invent gauges without pressures on them, just saturation temps. Makes you want to smak the first guy that made refrigeration gauges. It would be the best thing going and I would darn near single handedly fix 90% of the problems with systems. Training would be effective, it so hard now to tell guys to quit worrying about pressures when they are the bold numbers on the gauge.

Maybe I could get rich, retire to Florida, build a house and have Dash install the system, post pictures on here every step of the way and call him every day with my current conditions expecting him to drop everything and come look at it.

[docholiday]

BTW, this is my official unofficial poor man's patent... Date, and time noted.

[Wild Leg]

Originally posted by docholiday
Who uses pressures?

Maybe I'll invent gauges without pressures on them, just saturation temps.

I'd like to buy 30 sets of each refrigerant type.

Where do I send the money?

[docholiday]

You just qualified to be my 30/70 partner.

You buy the gauges, I'll get the white out and the sharpie markers..

[georgiaho]

I started this thread with good intentions since I really am considering either one of the pieces of equipment. I knew that I would get the debate both pro and con on the 410 vs R-22 issue. What amazed me was that with the R-22 system supposedly rated higher in SEER than the 410 system, that seemed to be overlooked in those post who totally recommended against the 410 solution. I know that as an industry, we as home owners are on that cusp of going one way or another. As the last poster said, a good install and this one should last 15 years. Then I suppose will be looking at the replacement to 410 by then.

I'm amazed at the propaganda put out by the manufacturer's concerning R-22 in an effort to push their 410 systems. Outright scare tactics into making one believe that R-22 will be so expensive to work on just to disuade others from buying R-22 systems in favor of 410 systems. I'm sure a lot of it is based on speculation and the historical price increases of R-12, but that's all it is. The average consumer doesn't know.

But I digress. I did come here to trust and verify what my buddy said as opposed to be shocked and awed after the fact. I really appreciate everyone's input here and based on what I have read here, researched on the web, and with my buddy's guidance, will go with the R-22 system. It has a higher SEER rating, the AH is warranted for 5 years instead of 1, the outdoor units are both warranted for up to 10 years. The cost of the R-22 system is only 10% less, not significent when you're talking this kind of money.