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  1. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebCTRL View Post
    Where did this "right of the people to bargain collectively" come from, huh? There is not right to bargain collectively for "the people". Noone has a "right" to get anything other that the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, period.
    The right to collectively bargain is recognised through international human rights conventions. Article 23 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights identifies the ability to organise trade unions as a fundamental human right.[3] Item 2(a) of the International Labour Organization's Declaration on Fundamental Principles and Rights at Work defines the "freedom of association and the effective recognition of the right to collective bargaining" as an essential right of workers.[4]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_bargaining

    The main body of law governing collective bargaining is the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA). It explicitly grants employees the right to collectively bargain and join trade unions.

    The NLRA establishes procedures for the selection of a labor organization to represent a unit of employees in collective bargaining. The act prohibits employers from interfering with this selection. The NLRA requires the employer to bargain with the appointed representative of its employees. It does not require either side to agree to a proposal or make concessions but does establish procedural guidelines on good faith bargaining. Proposals which would violate the NLRA or other laws may not be subject to collective bargaining. The NLRA also establishes regulations on what tactics (e.g. strikes, lock-outs, picketing) each side may employ to further their bargaining objectives.

    State laws further regulate collective bargaining and make collective agreements enforceable under state law.
    http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/collective_bargaining

  2. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by netsalt View Post
    [I]What does healthcare reform have to do with taking away workers contractual rights?

    This was a contradiction to the dictatorial postion being an argument when it coincides with the lefts postion, not as a consistent argument. Only when the left disagrees with a position or policy is this argument brought up. Obamacare was an example.

    [I]Ruling by decree - not open to compromise - if the shoe fits.

    Shoe doesn't fit here... the bill is on the floor for discussion, step up democrats and argue on the floor then vote on it. If the majority votes in favor, then it's not a dictatorial decree, it's a democratic vote. This argument again, is only used when the left disagrees with the majority.


    The union gave concessions previously and apparently are open to further talks Reallly, then why aren't they on the floor debating???

    One of the missing Democratic state senators, Jon Erpenbach, said all state and local public employees -- including teachers -- have agreed to the financial aspects of Walker's requested concessions on paying more for employee health care and pensions.
    "In return they ask only that the provisions that deny their right to collectively bargain are removed," Erpenbach said. "This will solve the budget challenge."

    Offer and counteroffer. Just because the left doesn't like the offer or counter offer, doesn't make it right or wrong, just democratic. It's not good faith to bail out on your responsibilities and flee...The voters put representative in office and now they bail out on their responsibility. Shame on them. I don't like your rules, so I'm taking my ball and going home....CHILDISH

    So this is all about balancing the budget and not idealogy - please put the Tea down and back away.

    Yes it is about balancing the budget and it is ALL about idealogy, and on both sides, obviously!
    Admit it, the left will do anything to not listen to the will of the people...when that will is against thier socialist philosophy, right?

  3. #68
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    South of the border here that international human rights thing doesn't gain alot of traction. I see your Supreme court upheld worker rights, guess ours was too busy thinking about giving human rights to corporations. Just to keep the record straight government employees here have only had the right to collective bargaining for 47 years the private sector had the right for much longer.

  4. #69
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    Nice points, and I see where they try to tie the right of collective bargaining as a right to liberty, ahhhh, it's a stretch IMO, but I understand the argument made. And for my statement that it is not a right, I admit I was wrong. Based upon UN, Canada, FDR and JFK viewpoints, I was incorrect.

    The UN and Canadian arguments and rulings were all comprised under the negotiation with private enterprise, not government. NLRA was enacted for the same reasons. Expressly excluding public sector employees. And remember the NLRA was enacted and signed by FDR, for all intents a socialist, right?
    I don't see how collective bargaining does or should apply to government workers (again IMO) but I do see the other side of the argument on collective bargaining a little clearer now.

    Again, I was wrong stating it isn't a right of people to have collective bargaining rights. I don't have to agree with it, but as the UN, Canada and FDR have cited, it is a right. (I guess this is where you put in the touche'-you got me there).

    I don't have to agree with the principle of collective bargaining, it seems to me a socialist methodology and contrary to the free enterprise system. But I do have to admit it is a right, currently. Might be changing, at least on a state/local level.

    And with this new enlightenment (of mine), I guess it begs the question, if a right is granted by the left or right, can it be revoked by the other side when the political climate changes? I mean, if this right of collective bargaining was given by the left (FDR/JFK), can the right take it away? (Especially when the reasons originally behind the passage or issuance of the law/order are no longer applicable)

    And how could JFK issue an executive order invoking the right to collective bargaining on state and local goverments, isn't this overstepping the constitution or would this be linked to the "commerce clause" as a way to regulate the state/local governments?

  5. #70
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    Interesting turn of events concerning this legislation - the more that comes to light regarding this bill the more it stinks, it includes the sale and operation of state assets with a no bid process. Do you think there will be any preferential treatment for certain well funded contributors? http://legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/data/JR1SB-11.pdf
    Page 24:
    16.896 Sale or contractual operation of state-owned heating, cooling, and power plants. (1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the department may sell any state-owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss. 196.49 and 196.80, no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification of a project under s. 196.49 (3)


  6. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by netsalt View Post
    So much for contracts. I asked this in another thread - When did the war on the middle class become the war on unions? The correct answer will get a special favor from the dictatorship that will soon be appointed by the TP.
    Pretty sure many of these workers do not have a contract currently. The last governor was going to renew them, but after the last elections, decided to leave it up to Walker to figure out.

    Personally I hope he is successful in passing the bill though. My tax money supporting these ridiculous benefits that are not found in the private market is total BS. It’s time public workers get in line with what the rest of us deal with.

    What grinds me is Walker claims we need to balance the budget and trim spending, yet he passes out tax credits almost as fast as he cuts spending. Taking two steps forward and one back…
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  7. #72
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    Whether you agree with Walker or not, he is attempting to make WI more welcome to business.....NEW BUSINESS. It is a two prong strategy. First, make WI more like a right to work state, (bust the unions down a notch). Second, offer tax breaks to lure more business in, thus increasing the corporate tax base. In time, that will increase state revenue, (I know, the dreaded Reaganomics). Just look at the map below. It is no secret where all the new manufacturing jobs are going.

    http://www.nrtw.org/images/us-map.gif
    "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
    -Abraham Lincoln

  8. #73
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    Well maybe the term balanced budget means different things to different people.

    Money in = money out is balanced budget in my mind.

    What you’re talking about is more budget games that maybe in the future will pay off.

    BTW Reagan and balanced budget don’t belong in the same paragraph.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  9. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by orion242 View Post
    Well maybe the term balanced budget means different things to different people.

    Money in = money out is balanced budget in my mind.

    What you’re talking about is more budget games that maybe in the future will pay off.

    BTW Reagan and balanced budget don’t belong in the same paragraph.
    Just examining the man's strategy. Never said it would balance any budget. Politicians don't care about that. They do care about raising more tax revenue. Many different ways to do that. Reaganomics is one of many strategies to so, which, I believe, raises more revenue than the Dems tax and spend mentality. BTW, notice how well that is doing now.....surprise.
    "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
    -Abraham Lincoln

  10. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by whec720 View Post
    Just examining the man's strategy. Never said it would balance any budget. Politicians don't care about that. They do care about raising more tax revenue. Many different ways to do that. Reaganomics is one of many strategies to so, which, I believe, raises more revenue than the Dems tax and spend mentality. BTW, notice how well that is doing now.....surprise.
    We just got lucky that Reagan bankrupted the USSR before he Bankrupted the USA.


    And all of you complaining about what Union workers get. Well it's because they have the right to bargain that they get their benifits. Everyone else is subject to the whims of their employer.

  11. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by acmanko View Post
    We just got lucky that Reagan bankrupted the USSR before he Bankrupted the USA.


    And all of you complaining about what Union workers get. Well it's because they have the right to bargain that they get their benifits. Everyone else is subject to the whims of their employer.
    The governor is taking away collective bargaining, so apparently it isn't a right.

    glad to see to governor sticking it to the unions instead of the unions sticking it to the people.

    If you don't like the pay your employer is offering, leave and work for someone else or start your own company.

  12. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by acmanko View Post
    We just got lucky that Reagan bankrupted the USSR before he Bankrupted the USA.


    And all of you complaining about what Union workers get. Well it's because they have the right to bargain that they get their benifits. Everyone else is subject to the whims of their employer.
    Ace you don't mind your union dues going to support a commie lover whom you want to be a dog catcher much less voting for a 1984 big brother government. Thank heavens I have always lived and worked in a right to work state.

    Back in the early 60's I had a job at a paper mill in Tennessee. They had a union but didn't have to join. But they pushed me all the time. I found out if I gave the job steward one dollar for COPE (AFL-CIO political action committee) that he could check me off and left me alone for a year.

    Back then they would never support a good old Southern Democrat. They would only support a liberal, socialist challenger to the conservative Southern Democrats so the South would lose it's seniority in Congress and let the liberals ruin the South which they eventually did. Naw I don't care for the unions. They don't represent the America I grew up in. They want a socialist commie America. Thank you, thank you very much.
    "I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."
    "I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
    Barry Goldwater

  13. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by netsalt View Post
    South of the border here that international human rights thing doesn't gain alot of traction. I see your Supreme court upheld worker rights, guess ours was too busy thinking about giving human rights to corporations. Just to keep the record straight government employees here have only had the right to collective bargaining for 47 years the private sector had the right for much longer.
    Labor unions only really became successful in bribing politicians to pass laws allowing government employees to unionize within the past 30 some years. I remember when Americans Against Union Control of Government started gaining force back in the 1970's with the purpose of keeping unions from controlling government workers in order to make up for their losing workers from the private sector.

    What happened? Unions in the private sector can only exist in a booming economy when competition is not so fierce. That was the condition of the U.S. after WWII and that is when labor unions had a major boost because everyone could afford anything and the mostly Mafia run labor unions were able to buy off politicians to pass laws to support their legalized extortion methods.

    Once the economy leveled out, labor unions caused situations where American companies could not be competitive. That is when the labor union numbers in the private sector declined and when labor unions turned to the politicians they had bought and paid for to create situations where government would grow in size of workers and would require them to be union members.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


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