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Thread: Puron or not
04-23-2005, 08:07 PM #1Regular Guest
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
I requested that my installer install the Amana RSG 16 instead he has advised me to go with the RCE 14.He claimes that he has heard of at least three seal leaks due to the added pressure in the puron models.If any one with experance installing puron air condensers knows if this typical please let me know.
04-23-2005, 08:19 PM #2Professional Member
- Join Date
- Nov 2001
Any mfg is capable of a minor production flaw, Units with r-22 have had them for yrs. Anything man made has the chance to fail.
I have been working with r410a for about 7yrs maybe, I don't recall any factory leaks on any units.
Install leaks happen everyday. I wouldn't let that guys comments deter me from buying a more eff unit. It's possible that guy doesn't like 410a. Some people don't like change.
I recall Amana had outdoor coil leaks for a short time.
[Edited by Toolpusher on 04-23-2005 at 08:21 PM]If you try to fail, and succeed.
Which have you done ?
04-23-2005, 08:22 PM #3
Amana doesn't utilize Puronฎ it uses R410a. Actually, Carrier coined the name Puron for a general refrigerant used by most every manufacturer. Sorry couldn't resist as I like to call it what it is. R22 is R22 not "Freon." Back on topic, I don't know of any problems with this refrigerant that could be considered inherent across every equipment line. Maybe your contractor has uncovered something about this particular model that he or she feels is repetitive. Perhaps you should consider another line if you are concerned. Carrier perhaps? With Puron?There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action....Mark Twain
04-23-2005, 08:31 PM #4
Or perhaps your contractor just doesn't like r410a, since he called it puron.
R410a systems are designed for the higher pressure.
Contractor locator map
How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?
04-24-2005, 09:43 AM #5Professional Member
- Join Date
- Apr 2003
Trane has experienced no problems in their indoor coils some manufacturers have especially in the south..... probly cause the use is higher....but look for Tranes all aluminum coil coming out just for the R410...... What I am thinking in 2010 no more R 22........well didn't they say that R134a for automobiles was going to be cheap.....well now that R12 is outta there.......seems like R134 tripled this year in price ....wowwwwwwwww it went up....... I remember when R 12 was 1.00 a can....... R134 has never been close...... I think that in 2010.. you think R410 is high now..... A/C replacement will be a rich mans hobby
04-24-2005, 10:00 AM #6
Thats a little brutal dont you think? I mean Air Conditioning and comfort are not going to pass by the way side.
There are some valid points about 410A, Chances are, and none of us have a crystal ball, R-22 will meet the price of R410A in a few short years. This is based on experience we all gained from R-12 and the Exsisting Montreal Protocol.
In 2004, there was a reduction of the production and importation of HCFC's by 35%. From 2003 Levels (the reference here). Now, that affects all products that use HCFC's in thier mix, not just refrigerant. There wasnt a big cut in refrigerant, it was mostly other products.
In 2007 the production and importation of HCFC's will be reduced by 65% of 2003 levels. This may have a larger effect on R-22. In 2010, the largest purchasers of R-22 will no longer be buying R-22. That is the Equipment mfgs. This will certainly have some effect on the production schedules by the chemical companies. They will be online to support and mfg R-410A. This is only 4 years (which means 3 to mfg's).
Now again in 2015, HCFC's will be reduced by 90% (again compaired to 2003 levels). Is there anyone here that suggests the pricing of R-22 will maintain its relative price? You might look at the equipment your buying, in 10 years you might just need to service yours. OR you can find a guy who will use a drop-in refrigerant leaving you with a lower capacity, less efficient system. As mentioned in 2020, we will have no HCFC production or importation.
I'm not trying to paint a gloom and doom picture here but lets say you buy the 14 (r-22). This will include an entire system change. When you replace that in 12-16 years, you will change the entire system again because the refrigerant will have changed requiring the indoor coil to be changed.
Its your call, obviously, but do some research and make an educated decision.
04-24-2005, 12:02 PM #7
Doc, normally don't you advise changing all to be a matched system? So if a guy buys today's R410a equipment, odds are when the time comes to replace it, technology will be different, efficiencies higher and all will have to be replaced anyway.
The price of R22 in the future will matter only if you have a leak. A good system with no leak, who cares what R22 does in 2015.
I'm still waiting to see what happens with R410a and POE with all the leakers out there. They gonna start putting oil change capabilities on small compressors?
04-24-2005, 12:16 PM #8
talked to a guy after a space pak class and he puts in alot of Trane. He has had quite a few indoor coil leaks with the 410A equipment. His exact words during the class regarding 410A stuff was, "it sucks".KX500......the original big green meanie
04-24-2005, 01:24 PM #9
Baldone....The reason I dont think you will see much in the way of coil changes in the NEXT generatrion (after the SEER and Refrigerant change) is because thermally there is nothing left as far as efficiency goes. We cannot make the refrigerant subcool below ambient, and we need to maintain the same satruation temps in order to cool. The higher efficiency stuff of the future is in Watt reduction. Unless the coil design has anything to do with that without jepordizing the fuction, the coils wont change much after all this IMHO. I guess what I am saying is as far as standard stuff goes, I suspect the models developed for 13 SEER R-410A will be used in matches for quite some time. Thats all me and Forest Gump have to say about that.
[Edited by docholiday on 04-24-2005 at 01:26 PM]
04-24-2005, 01:40 PM #10Professional Member
- Join Date
- Sep 2002
- South Dakota
All of the manufacturers stay in contact regarding potential R-410A issues. No service issues particular to R-410A have been reported.
R-410A actually has fewer warranty claims than R-22! Higher operating pressures do not automatically result in more leaks. Properly installed piping using the proper materials assures that the system piping and components can stand far more pressure than the normal operating pressures subject the system components to.
The industry's main concern is that service technicians follow the installation and service procedures as required by the manufacturer. That is why we have R-410A technician certification.
Perhaps the following link will be of help to you.
04-24-2005, 03:47 PM #11Regular Guest
- Join Date
- Oct 2002
We have had practically no leaks from factory on R410A systems, technicians need to do a better job on their piping techniques. The purchase of a new unit with R-22 today, borders on retardation. First the price of R-22 will follow the age old process of supply versus demand. The supply is going to 35% of the 1999 production rate in 4 years. Five years after that it goes to 10% of the 1999 production rate. The supply is definitely going to reduce, the price will definitely rise. How high is anybody's guess. That problem will be extreme by 2009 four years from now. Units being purchased today are expected to last 10 to 18 years, depending on unit quality, preventative maintenance and climate it will operate in. Most R410A units have a ten year parts warranty, by 2009; you will be hard-pressed to buy an R-22 unit. My advice is if your contractor doesn't want to sell you a R410A unit, I would find a Carrier, Lennox, or Trane dealer that will and you will be glad you did.
04-25-2005, 10:48 AM #12Banned
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- Aug 2002
- Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL