Dangerous Effects of this Site

[nathan9999]

I just wanted to let you guys know what kind of effect spending too much time on this site does for a consumer.

After making up my mind about the HVAC for my new home (80% single stage and 13 SEER), last night I had an epiphany (never get to use that word in my work) and I just decided I am going to spend a few thousand more and go with a 90%+ with VS (probably Rheem modulating) and a higher SEER AC.

So here was my experience with this site:

Ignorance > Confusion > Enough knowledge to be dangerous >
More confusion > A little more knowledge > First conclusion> A little more knowledge > Conclusion I'm just being too cheap > Final conclusion.

So I'll get a better system and not go on vacation next year.

Thanks, guys!!

[Twilly]

Originally posted by nathan9999
I just wanted to let you guys know what kind of effect spending too much time on this site does for a consumer.

After making up my mind about the HVAC for my new home (80% single stage and 13 SEER), last night I had an epiphany (never get to use that word in my work) and I just decided I am going to spend a few thousand more and go with a 90%+ with VS (probably Rheem modulating) and a higher SEER AC.

So here was my experience with this site:

Ignorance > Confusion > Enough knowledge to be dangerous >
More confusion > A little more knowledge > First conclusion> A little more knowledge > Conclusion I'm just being too cheap > Final conclusion.

So I'll get a better system and not go on vacation next year.

Thanks, guys!!

Gooooooooooood decision, and you be able to enjoy your next vaction with the piece of mind that you choose the best furnace on the market....

Also would you send me a private email? I have a couple of questions for you. My email is under my credintials

[cbmechanical]

What happened to you is the best thing about this site.

[nathan9999]

This site is pretty unique, it seem to me. dozens of different contractors, service techs, etc. responding to inquiries and offering advice. For the most part not too many flame-throwers either, mostly experienced professionals spending their time in an activity which will not make them a dime.

I'm a CPA by trade and I don't know of such a forum in my line of work.

Thanks again for all the advice.

[Tempted]

Originally posted by nathan9999
This site is pretty unique, it seem to me. dozens of different contractors, service techs, etc. responding to inquiries and offering advice. For the most part not too many flame-throwers either, mostly experienced professionals spending their time in an activity which will not make them a dime.

I'm a CPA by trade and I don't know of such a forum in my line of work.

Thanks again for all the advice.

I don't think we would be really clear if we read and Accounting forum atleast I wouldn't. I do know that I would of liked to try many a time. Why don't you start one, very few if any companies don't have accounting questions. I sure do.

[nathan9999]

Tempted, I wouldn't even know where to start. I know you'd have to have a lot of accountants participating because it might be days before I myself could respond to a question and the person asking the question might not want to wait that long.

On this site almost every question or inquiry starts getting responses in hours, and often minutes.

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nathan9999
[B]I just wanted to let you guys know what kind of effect spending too much time on this site does for a consumer.




Your post illustrates the metamorphisis (I never get to use that word in my daily work) from consumer to an informed customer.

[contactor]

nathan9999, a vacation is important too.The heat/ AC system is the heart of your home.Finances are up to you.
Wanna here my financial problems?
Daughter went to Prom tonight, $750
sons recent headaches that insurance wont cover,$ 1200
My heat and AC system Priceless.
Thank god I have credit, Going Salmon fishing for our vacation!

[Xavier]

Nathan Did you do a ROI on all the permutations and combinations? The most expensive is not always the best investment. My web site shows how to calculate your energy costs to help in the analysis.

Depending on your Heating vs Cooling costs in California, you may want to increase one and decrease the other.

Continue your analysis until you eliminate the confusion, because the only confusing decisions we have is on our Income Taxes!

[MikeJ]

Originally posted by nathan9999
This site is pretty unique, it seem to me.

I'm a CPA by trade and I don't know of such a forum in my line of work.

Thanks again for all the advice.

Just curious. Did you compute the savings you may get with the upgrade>?

This might pay for a vacation in 5 yrs? That is, in addition to the one scheduled.

[docholiday]

Here we go, even people in this industry taking comfort out of the equation again.

Nathan you made a wise choice you will not regret. The mod, is by far the best furnace on the market today and the only ones who will buck you on that are the ones who have never had the pleasure of experiencing one. In all the years of experience many of the techs, dealers, installers and even mfg's have, they cannot phathom there can be a difference in comfort over their "premium" systems yet it does exsist.

As you have read here almost daily, the installation is crucial, anyone installing or selling this equipment should know that and take the added steps to make sure your installation has the attention to detail equal to the furnace.

Take pics, and lets all hope they end up on the "Wall of Pride" and not the "Wall of Shame"

[nathan9999]

Xavier, I know I did a permutation in statistics class but my religion forbids permutations on the sabbath.

Just kidding, I'll check out your site. As far as the potential future benefits I do have some faith that electric rates and natural gas in California will only continue to increase in the future, and as we intend to be in this next house for 15-20 years I do feel going as close to max efficiency will be rewarded.

Since I'm in a hot dry climate I do want as high a SEER AC. In some respects a two-stage VS furnace is more important than a 90%+ feature on the heating side, but I still feel as though the savings will increase going forward. I have been convinced of the comfort benefits of a modulating design and it seems as though Rheem/Ruud is really the only current provider.

Doc, thanks for your advice. Your posts have been quite informative and balanced. You put a high priority on installation quality but do not go as far as to say that equipment quality is unimportant. You are also a consistent advocate of comfort issues. Although we live in an area with mild winters I am hoping the modulating furnace will provide increased comfort, particularly if my parents come to live with us.

While I am quite convinced of the Rhhem/Ruud furnace I have not heard as much about their AC units. I hope their 16 or 18 SEER units prove to be reliable.

My one concern is that one of the consistent themes from those who have been in the HVAC business for some time is that the quality of the current products may not measure up to older products. There have also been quite a few posts that claims that the newer higher efficiency products with more features may require more repairs and that an extended warranty is important.

Here's an interesting admission that may make some you shake your heads. I bought my house 26 years ago. The HVAC is a Rheem roof top combination unit and it has never been serviced. I had the thermostat replaced about 8 years ago.

So either I'm lucky or the quality of the older units was higher. In any case I probably won't test fate like this with the new equipment.

Thanks again.

[docholiday]

I assure you the 16 and 18 SEER units are great. In the 410A versions you have multi stage capcity and some of the highest latant capacity I have seen in high efficiency machines. Very quiet and much easier to service than most.

[nathan9999]

Doc, I can assure you that I am looking forward to the highest latent capacity I can afford (now I'm going to go look up latent capacity). Actually, my clients often tell me that I obviously have a lot of latent mental capacity! Is that the same as unused brain potential? I don't know if it is a compliment or not.

[jeffkillen]

It's a very simple sale point but true,You'll spend 20,000+ on a vehicle,why not spend half that on a heating/cooling system that will serve you for years?

[Xavier]

Nathan, forgot to ask, have you had or is the HVAC contractor doing a heat loss/gain analysis so you properly size the units? Correct sizing is very very important for "comfort"!

You stated that your parents may visit. The number one complaint by "older" homeowners of their new 90+ furnaces is the temperature of the air coming out is COLD!

The point I am attempting to make (as I was an accountant many years ago) is the decision of which HVAC system to purchase today, is very complicated and difficult.

Good Luck

[nathan9999]

Xavier, is the complaint over cooler air on 1st lower stage? Or is it a complaint for both stages?

I had not heard of this issue with higher efficiency furnaces. I had heart this with heat pumps. Is this a common complaint with 90%+ furnaces? If so, why is it a problem with this type of furnace?

Forgot to add, the architect did a Manual J and Title 24 calculation but I plan to ask the HVAC contractor to re-do and re-confirm the Manual J as a condition of the contract signing.

[Edited by nathan9999 on 04-24-2005 at 07:28 PM]

[Twilly]

That Doc he's a smart one for sure and I love the way he guns them carrier guys down. He couldn't have picked a better name.

Long live Doc Holiday

[jdew1920]

Nathan - for what it's worth, the Rheem Modulating furnace that I just had installed this week does not put out cold air at lowest capacity (40%). We've been around 30-35 deg this weekend and it just keeps humming along at 40%, the air flow is low but the air temp is warm.

[docholiday]

Nathan... Ignore the low temperature complaints.

The furnace when powered up will go through a calibration cycle. It will fire itself at various rates and by sensing the supply air temperature, will program itself to operate at the mid point of the designed temperature rise at any firing rate.

The software in the board and thermostat, determine the firing rate and the board tells the blower how fast to run. At 40% firing rate you will have the same temperature rise you would at 100%. The volume will be low to the point you think you have baseboard heat. In your mild climate, the furnace will stay at the 40% most of the time I am sure and modulate up when that is simply not enough. There is an option for the installer, if well trained, to modify the temperatur rise but in most cases its best left alone.

JDew, nice to see an owner testimonial.