Ok... Lets curb this while we can. I respect your opinion, I tend to believe it myself to an extent, but they dont make an atmospheric gravity furnace anymore so the comparisons are no longer fair. The differnce between a low level 90+ and a Mod90 is hardly worth the difference in comfort.
All furnaces made today have alot more parts than furnaces of yesteryear, granted, more moving parts. All furnaces have inducer or vent motors, all furnaces have blower motors. Most of the premium units have a variable speed motor and at least a 2 speed inducer. I cannot think of a furnace made in the past couple years that used a VS motor other than the ECM from GE. Many of the replaced motors, especially early on were misdiagnosed. Some were damaged by condensate. GE has also improved the module over the past 2 years inluding moisture protection. Many had the whole motor assembly replaced when just the module needed replaced. Sometimes this was at a homeowners expense but more than often it was warranty. The motor in the Mod is the same as any other VS furnace exept the software in it enables that same motor to work at a true variable speed while the rest are limited to two or three cfm ranges.
The furnace has a 5 year parts warranty and I believe Nathan mentioned he was going with the extended 10 year warranty including parts and labor. I always recommend this for all the more it costs. If he chooses the high seer condenser he may already get a 10 year warranty on all parts there.
Many furnace failures are due to airflow issues, the ECM will overcome many of those and the furnace will also control its temperature rise. It is Direct Spark ingition so it will not have a Hot surface ignitor to fail. The unit will cycle about a third as many times as the normal furnace which means less cycles on every part. The reliability of these furnaces is simply outstanding. Very, very few warranty claims. And so far no complaints from anyone who has one. Find that claim anywhere else. Its been around for 7 years.
[Edited by docholiday on 04-25-2005 at 11:33 PM]
We sold hunderds of top of the VS ,two spped compressors ,etc.,all with ten year parts and labor.A total of around 1800 systems under Factory extended warranty,dating back to 1997.
I can tell you ,we don't bill the factory very much for service of these systems.
Originally posted by bornriding
Actually, Doc, I have seen one ( maybe two ).
No Nathan, My opinions are based in my experience. Which I readily admit, with higher eff. systems, are little. One experience was with a variable speed, system, eff ???, unit five years old, blower motor went out, cost 642.00 to repair. Where did the efficiency go then.
I believe that the more complicated a system is, the more problems that will incur, and the more cost to operate and repair. I see that all the time with a/c units VS heat pumps.
I have read several of your posts against "technology". In my exposure in talking with dealers the complaints you have are typical. A repair guy sees the worst end of new technology - the manufacturer's oops stuff. But, the issues you state are dated. You formed your opinion during the genesis of these motors. Time to give it a new look. I agree that as an installer I would wait for the bugs to be worked out as the VS blowers did have issues at first. GE has been diligent in constantly refining these motors based on the field failures noted.
I challenge you to tear one of these VS motors apart. The rotor is a rare earth magnet, the bearings are ball bearing the windings are much thicker that a PSC. The control head is the where the issues are and they are rare these days. The cost of the control head is comparable to replacing a standard motor but sevicers lack of diagnostic confidence demonstrates a complete motor change when (maybe) a control head is all that is required.
I am intrigued by the way people will form an opinion and stick to it over two to ten issues and will become lifetime skeptics.
From what I've read in this forum It's like a 3-5 year delay in whats already been redesigned but repairers are just now seeing. The statements by Doc are correct- water resistant issues corrected; hard starts - corrected; voltage spike resistance corrected, etc. Companies don't make money on field failures. They refine constantly to make them better. The VS technology is old now. This technology is now a standard and with the higher seer rules and demand to have 16 seer and greater by discriminating buyers, Born, your going to see alot more of this. Better shed your skin and get ready.
Doc, Mod, anyone else
I absolutely do not ever mean to offend anyone with my views.
Doc, I respect yur opinions, as you seem to be well versed
Mod, I'm sur yu are too !
I simply believe that simple last longer and cost less.
give me 10 (10-12 seer )a/c units with electric heat and ten ( 10 -12 seer ) heat pump units, and ten ( 14 seer and above ), all serving the same size home in the same area.
I would bet yo that at the end of 15 years, most of the 14 & above systems will have been replaced, as would some if not most of the heat pumps. The majority of the a/c units with electric heat would still be operating.
I have seen this myself with heat pumps VS a/c w/heat.
The a/c w/heat just lasts longer in most cases.
And again, ya'll have to understand that I do most of my work for middle to lower income. The people that really don't have the money to spend.
You dont offend me at all, I'm just a little concerned over the fact that Nathan has spent a great deal of time researching whats best for him, he listened to everyone with open ears and made a good, educated decision. Lets leave well enough alone and appriciate how much we wished all our customers were as well versed.
Of course a heat pump wont last as long as a straignt a/c would. It cycles 3-4 times more per year.
A 14 SEER (and above) should have TXV's and scroll compressors on top of LPS, HPS, Time delays etc. I understand thats more parts but the safeties themselves are often replaced because a parts changer doesnt know why they opened. Scrolls are certainly more resilliant to liquid than are recips and pistons are more likely to flood than txv's. Higher efficiency equipment has much closer tolerances, that should go without saying. This means there is less room for error or slop on the installation. installed properly, I just dont buy the failure rates being higher, in fact, I would bet that the higher SEER stuff has a lower warranty percentage (against sales) than the lower does.
In this case, you have gas furnaces, as I mentioned, all have inducers, all have gas valves, all have motors and all have circuit boards. The cost of a repair can o nly be compaired by the difference. The mod requires factory training and a standard furnace does not, we see it every day on here and in the wall of shame how poor some of them are installed. We also see some well done ones on the wall of pride. While factory training doesnt gaurentee a faultless installation, you gotta believe the guys paying to attend training at least care a little about what kind of service they offer. The Ruud reps would likely come down hard on a hacked in Mod.
The "collective" knowledge of the group is one of the most amazing things about internet forums.
I've seen it on several different boards over the years. There's not much that hasn't been tried by someone before you. Learn from others experiments and save yourself the pain and expense.
This is a great place! Thanks to all who contribute and to the site owners for providing this gathering place.