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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, United States
    Posts
    12,911
    Make them get a permit and follow the manufactures instructions. The HVAC inspector should not involve himself in any other issues. Secondly on the work performed by the HVAC contractor has to meet the current NEC. So the example of the plugs having to be GFCI is incorrect. They would be accepted as is.

    If any new plugs are installed in unfinished basement they could have to be GFCI protected unless they are specific to an appliance...example washing machine plugs are not GFCI protected, or sump pumps, or a freezer.

    Demand they take the permit. I'm surprised that some of you have suggested that the H/O not worry about the permit were it's required.

    RoboTech? Why would you expect the customer to trust the contractor that hasn't followed manufactures specs. In our area the inspector will insure that Man spec are followed. To me that is a good thing. Not once in over 30 years hae I seen an inspector deal with any other issue than the HVAC system.





    [Edited by twilli3967 on 04-21-2005 at 07:10 PM]
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  2. #15
    Originally posted by dave_slo
    Work without Permit? C'mon guys... If that furnace ever causes a problem, fire, smoke damage, water damage etc, just how good do you think the homeowners insurance is going to be when they find out its an unpermitted install?
    Just how good do you think your business insurance is going to be if an unpermitted install you did goes wrong and somebody is hurt?
    As far as other items in the area, they are not in the scope of the permit, therefore not subject to inspection. If the permit is a general remodel permit, then yes, you might have to bring other things up to code. But if its just a OTC permit for a furnace replacement, that shouldn't be the case.
    Pull the permit, get it inspected, and then sleep at night.



    I'm not calling DAVESLO down on this one....he is absolutely correct. Pull the permit and have the job inspected as per the scope of the permit obtained.
    Yes, local beauracracy sucks but do the right thing anyway.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    368
    Had to step in here. All due respect robo this ain't Maryland, but if you understood the requirements for the State of Michigan, (which according to the posters profile has him living here) you would never tell someone in Michigan not to pull a permit.
    As far as being diligent or the contractors integrity jdew is absolutly within his right to question this. With regard to the liner it is required here on orphaned water heaters in a masonary chimney to have a liner and at least the contractor did this part which is part of his job to do.
    With regard to the venting the inspector normally, (at least its always my practice) to review the mfg. instructions on the venting and thats in the CODE here also that they be on the job for inspection.
    This company knew better from the beginning, as a Michigan Licensed (assumption) Contractor, that permits are required for any changeout. The electrical items mentioned are not checked by the Mechanical inspector anyway, that would be an electrical inspectors job if he were called in on a request by the permit holder if any.
    The insurance item is also right on the money. Whenever there is a fire or major problem around here with an insurance claim the first place the insurance co. goes is to the building dept to check on inspections based on the model and serial numbers of the units installed and many people have had claims denied for this very item.

    Sorry for the rant but people from other States and areas of the country really shouldn't comment on permit issues like this when they don't know the Codes and restrictions of the area in question.
    Vern P: 2003 MBC,MRC,IFGC,IFC
    An HVAC-Talk Michigan Chapter Mechanical Inspector, Jurisdiction-Ann Arbor

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
    Posts
    16,002
    Originally posted by vern p
    Sorry for the rant but people from other States and areas of the country really shouldn't comment on permit issues like this when they don't know the Codes and restrictions of the area in question.
    Some just assume! you know what assuming does makes a behind out of you and me, yes there are lot of places you don't need permits especially in the Counties out of the citys that is real common even in Tx.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

    "Never let success go to your head, and never let failure go to your heart". - Unknown

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, United States
    Posts
    12,911
    Vern in fact in Michigan you can change out the entire panel and not even address the rest of the house, I heard this line of thinking to justify the non taking of permits for years. The H/O was right it BS
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    maryland
    Posts
    1,355
    make sure you counted the number of elbows in the combustion air/vent piping correctly. you should not include the elbows used in terminating the run, only the 90's used to get there.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
    Posts
    68,944
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by twilli3967
    [B]RoboTech? Why would you expect the customer to trust the contractor that hasn't followed manufactures specs. In our area the inspector will insure that Man spec are followed. To me that is a good thing. Not once in over 30 years hae I seen an inspector deal with any other issue than the HVAC system.

    [Edited by RoBoTeq on 04-21-2005 at 08:36 PM]
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  8. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, United States
    Posts
    12,911
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by RoBoTeq
    [B]
    Originally posted by twilli3967
    RoboTech? Why would you expect the customer to trust the contractor that hasn't followed manufactures specs. In our area the inspector will insure that Man spec are followed. To me that is a good thing. Not once in over 30 years hae I seen an inspector deal with any other issue than the HVAC system.

    [Edited by RoBoTeq on 04-21-2005 at 08:36 PM]

    And?
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    59
    I'm a problematic customer?

    Yes they installed a chimney liner - that was part of the contract. I'm sure they did a fine job of it, does this mean nothing else matters?

    First off, I said I thought they generally did a good job but questioned the venting. Then when I find out they didn't pull a permit when they told me they would makes me nervous. When we sold our last house the buyers agent checked the city for permits and found that for the roof there was no permit. I paid somebody to do it and he didn't pull a permit - the home inspector flagged this since the staples didn't penetrate through the decking as far as code specifies. In the end I was able to put the buyer in contact with the roofer and nothing ever came of it.

    This morning my wife goes to take a shower at 6:00 a.m. and there's no hot water. They had forgot to turn the water heater back on, so my wife went without a shower this morning and I got 1/2 hour less sleep since I had to get up and turn it back on. They also left the old thermostat wire hanging to the floor from the drop ceiling in the middle of the basement. These are not big issues but a little irritating. I'm not complaining about nuissance issues like these.

    The length of venting is just about 15' Manufacturer says with 5-6 fittings (22 1/2,45 or 90) - max length is 10'. That is for a standard termination (pipes straight out). For alternate termination (pipes turning up outside), it should be 3" in any case. I think anyway you count those it should be 3" pipe (except where it goes through the wall)

    Here's a few pics, so see for yourself.




    ignore the foil tape - that is remnents of my work

















    [Edited by jdew1920 on 04-21-2005 at 10:53 PM]

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
    Posts
    68,944
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by twilli3967
    [B]
    Originally posted by RoBoTeq
    Originally posted by twilli3967
    RoboTech? Why would you expect the customer to trust the contractor that hasn't followed manufactures specs. In our area the inspector will insure that Man spec are followed. To me that is a good thing. Not once in over 30 years hae I seen an inspector deal with any other issue than the HVAC system.

    [Edited by RoBoTeq on 04-21-2005 at 08:36 PM]

    And?
    You got me. I didn't edit this and as far as I can remember I didn't post anything that would have needed editing.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  11. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    126
    Thanks for posting this idew, I will not be leaving any more install manuels on the job .If he changes the venting tell him to replace the lube cocks on the gas line.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    59
    Originally posted by superheater
    I will not be leaving any more install manuels on the job.
    If you follow the manufacturer's directions then you have to leave them

  13. #26
    RoBo and superheater are correct-typical mountain out of a mole hill when armed with a little info-never leave them ammunition.

    Would make me want to run from his job.

    [Edited by frigeman on 04-22-2005 at 06:02 AM]

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