Am I asking too much of my contractor?

[jdew1920]

OK - just had a new furnace installed. It was the Rheem modulating - so far so good but I do have some concerns about the work.

First off, in general everything generally looks good to my eye, so I do not think this was a hack job or anything. But one of the things they were supposed to do was balance the duct work. When they were done I asked them about that and the tech kind of blew me off and said if I thought it needed it in the future to just call them and they'll come back and do it. I think they were in a hurry to get out here so I didn't press on it, I talked to the service rep for the company and he said they would come out and do it, so I guess it's no big deal, but I was a little dissapointed in them.

2nd, after reviewing the manual with the furnace I think the pvc they used for the venting is too small. They used 2" PVC for the entire run (for both intake and exhaust, and based on the #of elbows I think they should of used 3". I think it said for 5-6 elbows, you can 10' of 2" pipe. They had 7 on the exhaust and it is probably close to 15' total length. He said when they come out to balance the duct work they would take a look at it.

3rd, I called them today and asked about the permit (expecting that the inspector would need to come out sometime), and suprise no permit was pulled. He said that they don't always pull the permit since sometimes the homeowner gets nailed on other things - I think that is a line of BS. That said, I did do some minor plumbing in that room without a permit, but in either case I think they should always pull a permit.

What do you guys think? Should I make them pull a permit?

[coldbud]

yes, check with your county home improvement commission see what they say.

[RoBoTeq]

I would not be concerned about the permit if everything else is proper. Government beauracracy has a tendency to cause unnecessary issues.

Balancing will be a matter of how you feel different rooms need more or less conditioning after the system has been needed.

From what you are stating it sounds like the venting needs to be replaced with 3".

[jdenyer]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
I would not be concerned about the permit if everything else is proper. Government beauracracy has a tendency to cause unnecessary issues.

Balancing will be a matter of how you feel different rooms need more or less conditioning after the system has been needed.

From what you are stating it sounds like the venting needs to be replaced with 3".

It is true that the inspector can make you bring other issues up to current code if it's something in that area of the install. A good example, let's say the furnace is in the basement. Current code may now require all outlets to be GFCI protected if located in the basement, the inspector may now want all outlets in the basement changed. Before the permit was pulled you were grandfathered, but now that a permit gets pulled and that area is being worked on you may no longer be grandfathered.

I agree with Robo, government can sometimes cause more headaches than you need. Permits can be funny, let's say a few years from now the town comes in to do an assesment on your property. They notice something has changed and no permit was pulled, they can legally make you change it back to the way it was. This really doesn't apply to heating and cooling installs, mostly remodeling projects.

In most areas homeowners are not required to pull permits for "minor" repairs and work they do themselves. The permit should have been pulled before the job was started, now if the inspector finds something wrong, you would probably have to fix it at your cost. If you are happy with the install and the unit functions to manufacturers specs, I would let the permit issue die.

[dave_slo]

Work without Permit? C'mon guys... If that furnace ever causes a problem, fire, smoke damage, water damage etc, just how good do you think the homeowners insurance is going to be when they find out its an unpermitted install?
Just how good do you think your business insurance is going to be if an unpermitted install you did goes wrong and somebody is hurt?
As far as other items in the area, they are not in the scope of the permit, therefore not subject to inspection. If the permit is a general remodel permit, then yes, you might have to bring other things up to code. But if its just a OTC permit for a furnace replacement, that shouldn't be the case.
Pull the permit, get it inspected, and then sleep at night.

[dash]

Originally posted by dave_slo
Work without Permit? C'mon guys... If that furnace ever causes a problem, fire, smoke damage, water damage etc, just how good do you think the homeowners insurance is going to be when they find out its an unpermitted install?
Just how good do you think your business insurance is going to be if an unpermitted install you did goes wrong and somebody is hurt?
As far as other items in the area, they are not in the scope of the permit, therefore not subject to inspection. If the permit is a general remodel permit, then yes, you might have to bring other things up to code. But if its just a OTC permit for a furnace replacement, that shouldn't be the case.
Pull the permit, get it inspected, and then sleep at night.

yes have them pull a permit,you are not qualified to "look' at it and decide it's good enough.

It may be fine,but as stated above there are reasons to have an inspection.

[millerman]

Don't worry about a permit? What kind of response is that. You will not be inspected on anything other than what is on the permit. HVAC equipment must have a permit. Some area's may not require it but I doubt it. A good sign of a hack or low ball company is no permit.
By the way the company that did this can be fined and charged double for the permit. As a homeowner you don't have to have a license to do any work on your own house you do however need to pull permits for certain work, not repairs. The response regarding your insurance is true, so have the installing company get one. Ask them if they would like you to call the city or county public works regarding the install they did and lack of a permit, see what they say.

[badbatch]

Quote
"As far as other items in the area, they are not in the scope of the permit, therefore not subject to inspection."

We have had inspectors come in to look at a furnace install and saw that the home owner had their sump pump piped into the sewer , which is a no no. He made them have it pipe to the outside. So around here once they're in if they see something it seems they can call you on it.

Did your contract state that permit fees were included in the price? If so I would ask for the permit money back or for the inspection. We always pull a permit.

[RoBoTeq]

Inspections of HVAC in Maryland are a joke and only cause problems from inspectors who are rarely qualified to know what they are looking at. It is unfortunate, but most Maryland contractors try to avoid pulling permits because it increases the cost of doing the job so much.

Pennsylvania requires no permits and they are doing just fine.

It is unfortunate that too many government organizations have turned what could have been a benefit to the homeowner into a way of collecting more revenue and employing more people who are unemployable in the private sector.

[millerman]

It is interesting how differant things are from state to state. It is the law here in Oregon to pull permits on mechanical and plumbing (water heaters) equipment. It is best to check your local authority for the correct answer to the posed question regarding permits as (apparently) it is differant in all parts of the country.
A person could go on and on about the horrors and politics involved with permit issues nevertheless, if it is the law in your state abide by them period. Most homeowners don't know what is and isn't required and a dishonest company will hide that information so they can cut corners.

[jdew1920]

A permit is definately required by the city. It wasn't written in the contract, but when they gave me the estimate he did say that they would pull a permit.

But regardless of what they said or what the contract says, I think they are obligated to obtain the permit since they are the ones performing the work. When I talked to him today he said he would pull a permit if I wanted, so I don't think he'll fight too much. I really don't want to get into a p'sing match with him, just want to get things wrapped up and be assured that things were installed correctly.

Things "look" ok, but I'm no expert. If I was I would of installed it myself. They also installed a chimney liner for the water heater and I have no idea if that was done correctly either. Seems like that would be hard to screw up but who knows.

If I get a chance tonight maybe I'll take a few pictures and you guys can give me a review of the install.

One last thing. Another thing I noticed in the instructions for the furnace was that they specified a drain (in the picture it looked like a tube with a loop in it for a trap) on the combustion air intake piping. It is supposed to be located as close to the furnace as possible, and is intended to protect against possible water entry into the combustion air intake. I never noticed that before in any of the install pics I've seen here before - is that something that is required?

[beenthere]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq


Pennsylvania requires no permits and they are doing just fine.

Different counties and townships do require permits.
And PA, has adopted the 2003 IBC as its code. Along with 2003 EEC.

Some areas we still don't need a permit.

No wonder the amish are moving.

[RoBoTeq]

The company installed a chimney liner for an orphaned water heater, and you are questioning their integrity?

I think you most certainly are creating a p*$$ing match with your contractor.

It sounds like they have been quite diligent while possibly overlooking the vent requirements. Since venting requirements change quite often with manufacturers of equipment, I can't really blame your contractor for possibly overlooking a change.

I would consider you a problematic customer.

[Twilly]

Make them get a permit and follow the manufactures instructions. The HVAC inspector should not involve himself in any other issues. Secondly on the work performed by the HVAC contractor has to meet the current NEC. So the example of the plugs having to be GFCI is incorrect. They would be accepted as is.

If any new plugs are installed in unfinished basement they could have to be GFCI protected unless they are specific to an appliance...example washing machine plugs are not GFCI protected, or sump pumps, or a freezer.

Demand they take the permit. I'm surprised that some of you have suggested that the H/O not worry about the permit were it's required.

RoboTech? Why would you expect the customer to trust the contractor that hasn't followed manufactures specs. In our area the inspector will insure that Man spec are followed. To me that is a good thing. Not once in over 30 years hae I seen an inspector deal with any other issue than the HVAC system.





[Edited by twilli3967 on 04-21-2005 at 07:10 PM]

[chillbilly]

Originally posted by dave_slo
Work without Permit? C'mon guys... If that furnace ever causes a problem, fire, smoke damage, water damage etc, just how good do you think the homeowners insurance is going to be when they find out its an unpermitted install?
Just how good do you think your business insurance is going to be if an unpermitted install you did goes wrong and somebody is hurt?
As far as other items in the area, they are not in the scope of the permit, therefore not subject to inspection. If the permit is a general remodel permit, then yes, you might have to bring other things up to code. But if its just a OTC permit for a furnace replacement, that shouldn't be the case.
Pull the permit, get it inspected, and then sleep at night.

I'm not calling DAVESLO down on this one....he is absolutely correct. Pull the permit and have the job inspected as per the scope of the permit obtained.
Yes, local beauracracy sucks but do the right thing anyway.

[vern p]

Had to step in here. All due respect robo this ain't Maryland, but if you understood the requirements for the State of Michigan, (which according to the posters profile has him living here) you would never tell someone in Michigan not to pull a permit.
As far as being diligent or the contractors integrity jdew is absolutly within his right to question this. With regard to the liner it is required here on orphaned water heaters in a masonary chimney to have a liner and at least the contractor did this part which is part of his job to do.
With regard to the venting the inspector normally, (at least its always my practice) to review the mfg. instructions on the venting and thats in the CODE here also that they be on the job for inspection.
This company knew better from the beginning, as a Michigan Licensed (assumption) Contractor, that permits are required for any changeout. The electrical items mentioned are not checked by the Mechanical inspector anyway, that would be an electrical inspectors job if he were called in on a request by the permit holder if any.
The insurance item is also right on the money. Whenever there is a fire or major problem around here with an insurance claim the first place the insurance co. goes is to the building dept to check on inspections based on the model and serial numbers of the units installed and many people have had claims denied for this very item.

Sorry for the rant but people from other States and areas of the country really shouldn't comment on permit issues like this when they don't know the Codes and restrictions of the area in question.

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by vern p
Sorry for the rant but people from other States and areas of the country really shouldn't comment on permit issues like this when they don't know the Codes and restrictions of the area in question.

Some just assume! you know what assuming does makes a behind out of you and me, yes there are lot of places you don't need permits especially in the Counties out of the citys that is real common even in Tx.

[Twilly]

Vern in fact in Michigan you can change out the entire panel and not even address the rest of the house, I heard this line of thinking to justify the non taking of permits for years. The H/O was right it BS

[mallron]

make sure you counted the number of elbows in the combustion air/vent piping correctly. you should not include the elbows used in terminating the run, only the 90's used to get there.

[RoBoTeq]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by twilli3967
[B]RoboTech? Why would you expect the customer to trust the contractor that hasn't followed manufactures specs. In our area the inspector will insure that Man spec are followed. To me that is a good thing. Not once in over 30 years hae I seen an inspector deal with any other issue than the HVAC system.

[Edited by RoBoTeq on 04-21-2005 at 08:36 PM]