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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    lancpa
    Posts
    260

    loop size / length pa

    Loop legnth is a HUGE factor on your energy use/ performance and comfort. My advice to you is to hire someone from the IGSHPA Accredited Installer list in yor area to design it for you based on your needs. THis may be a small cost but a huge advantage. Then hire them to spec the driller what do drill. Also look at installing a no pressure system , it is a great option . ! Then have them log all data and do a test of performance before and after the job is done. That will be a great end result. Remember PA is a HEATING climate, bores should be treated as such. Its a good first question to weed out a non performing design .

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Central PA
    Posts
    7
    I don't know what a "No Pressure System" is, I've tried searching the internet but came up empty. I assumed all were the same, just circulating the coolant through the Heat Pump and then out through the loops to warm back up. I know I don't know much about GeoThermal Systems but I just don't understand how a loop can be spec'ed out any difernetly. 600 ft of loop is 600 ft of loop. I will trust what a professional tells me but I'd like to have an understanding before I hear it. Can anyone tell me, or give me a link to an explanation of how these different types work?

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    lancpa
    Posts
    260

    loops

    loop length is a heat exchanger, a heat pump takes what water you give it. No 2 loops are alike or perform alike. A design is too complicated to convey or teach easily . You need a qualifie designer and then you will naturally learn as the process goes along and you ask a watch.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    lancpa
    Posts
    260

    installers

    go to the international geothermal heat pump association website and poke around. accredited installers

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Central PA
    Posts
    7
    I contacted two different IGSHPA Accredited Installers and had two different opinions. One wants to fill from the top down with a limestone slurry (consistancy of sand). He said with the water mix he is sure it will fill completely with no voids. He says the limestone fill has a better heat transfer rate than the Bentonite Clay mix that is used when filling from the bottom up. The second guy wants to fill from bottom up to assure there are no voids and he says that the heat transfer rate of bentonite is good and has been doing it for years. I read somewhere in the forum that bentonite doesn't have a good transfer rate but I also read pretty much unanamously that they should be filled from bottom up. Is there a different fill other than bentonite that should be used or is the Bentonite acceptable?

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    lancpa
    Posts
    260

    confused

    Now I understand why u are confused . I think what you need is an hvac installer that is an accredited installer. You are referring to the driller . I always tell the driller what I want because I know what I am installing and what I need From the loop to do the job. Also I know what pumps Imusing and what loop temp I need through the seasons. As long as the match is good and the loop is put in to what I design and it fits the budget and performs everybody is happy.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Central PA
    Posts
    7
    These are Accredited Installers I spoke to. One seemed to put the decision of how deep to drill on the Driller because he claimed the driller has been doing this for 20 years and he is the expert. I shying away from this guy because I feel he should be dictating these things to the driller. The other Installer wants to fill from the bottom up with Bentonite. He hasn't said how deep yet other that he will do it in two holes, he is waiting until he comes Monday to look over my system and get all the needed specs. I do like this better, I just wondering about the Bentonite fill he likes to use.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    southern california
    Posts
    535
    Bentonite is a very common material to fill the holes. It has the ability to transfer energy from the loop to the earth.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    lancpa
    Posts
    260

    get the calcs in writing and post them

    It would be neat if we could see there specs

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Dell Rapids, SD
    Posts
    44
    Information on "no pressure system" flow center.

    http://www.bdmfginc.com/QT_Brochure.pdf

    I have no affiliation with B&D, but I like them alot.
    d

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Pa.
    Posts
    1,144
    Quote Originally Posted by djastram View Post
    Information on "no pressure system" flow center.

    http://www.bdmfginc.com/QT_Brochure.pdf

    I have no affiliation with B&D, but I like them alot.
    d
    Ive seen these before and think there a really cool set up. My only thing is bringing the manifold inside and having vlvs. on each loop. I generally like to keep them burried where i dont have to fight to insulate them properly and make the piping look decent.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    23
    The fast answer is to keep the open loop system, plumb in a system that allows for reverse flushing the system (as much piping as practicle) with a water velocity (not GPM) of 5 feet per second for two miinutes with a mixture of your well water and calgon that is gently mixed together. You want the mixture to be a liquid and not a sudzy bubble bath. Do that every 6 months and you should be golden.

    I have vast experience in water main work and dealing with debris in lines.

    To keep the lines free of sediment, the water velocity needs to be 5 feet per second. This is called the clearing velocity and is used on lines from 2" to 85" in diameter when the utlilty wants to get debris out of the line.

    From a GT standpoint, you will have a higher efficiency because of the water volume GPM that will exist.

    Regarding the clay, a sediment trap will not work. As a geotechnical engineering technician in my prior life, the particle size and weight of clay and silt particles allow them to stay suspended in a still column of water for days or weeks before settling.

    The logisitcs of 5 FPS and the discharge is a differnt matter.

  13. #26

    !2 gpm is a lot

    Quote Originally Posted by taswank View Post
    I don't know what the censored means either. I do have a flowmeter for the system. Florida Heat Pump says it should run at 12GPM. With the 40/60 pressure switch for my well pump, it is set at 12GPM at max pressure but drops to around 10 at min pressure. As the filter starts to clog it drops to the 8 to 10GPM range in four days, this is when I change the filter. Shower water pressure at this point is almost non existant if the heat pump is running. The glass tube on the flowmeter has to be taken apart and cleaned about once a month because the film of clay makes it unreadable.
    All the equiptment I've worked on only requires 1 and1/2 gallons per ton.

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