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  1. #1
    Hello,
    I am a property manager for a 2 level office building (28,500 sq ft) in Calif. I have a tenant in a 4000 sq. ft top floor office connected to one thermostat and oneone 10 ton trane unit on the roof. The people on one side of the office are freezing while the others are hot and vice versa. I need to get them on at least two, preferably three different zones. There are three dampers and three thermostats in that office space, but everything is connected to one and no one knows if the others would work if hooked up, let alone communicate with one another.

    Our HVAC technician has recommended we put the whole building on a computerized digital system, the Carrier CCN and begin with installing the zone sensors there first to start changing over the building little by little. Unfortunately, he's estimating that the whole 28,500 sq ft building that has app. 10 tenants total, would cost us $30,000 each floor at a total cost of $60,000!!! Eek... This is way out of our budget. So, for the time being, he said he'll put a "band aid" on this unit to make these people happy upstairs by using a residential Honeywell package (not compatible with any software) that would give that office three communicating zones at a total cost of $6400.00.

    I would like to know if anyone knows of a cheaper "band aid" until we can do the whole building software package, or if there is a "band aid" like this Honeywell unit that has software compatibility, or if anyone knows a building software system that is less expensive and just as effective as the Carrier CCN?

    Any advice would be much appreciated!
    Thank you!


    [Edited by esotericam on 04-10-2005 at 01:30 PM]

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    Lonworks is a device level network. You can buy them one piece at a time and not have to throw anything away. Circon, Distech, Honeywell, etc... make controls that all work on this network. You can also later add lights and access control as well.

    I'd say it's less expensive than CCN. Add any other function like lights or doors and it's much less expensive.

    Carrier's system is proprietary and the Honeywell Trol-a-temp is a dumb idea for commercial. Both those ideas are complete dead ends.

    Can you do any install yourself?

    EDIT: I should say any money-talk is not acceptable. Read the Rules. You will have to contact someone directly for that information.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    110
    Thermafusers are a diffuser with a self contained t-stat and automatic damper,they dont need any wiring just replace existing diffuser. I just put 12 of them in an office building that had 3 separate spaces, each space had 1 10 ton RTU, serving 2 floors with 1 t-stat on 1st floor. the upstairs was too hot. Took less than 1 day to install them and all tenenats are happy now.Talk to your local rep, get him to come out and look at job for proper application for there are a few things that have to be determined like static psi type of system ect...

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Pacific Time Zone
    Posts
    4,206
    Definitely go out and get bids and 2nd/3rd/4th opinions for the fix. I too suggest using a Lon stamped setup as much as possible. I don't know your knowledge on hvac but you can get a network setup that will sense the zone temp and send a demand load to the roof top unit to tell it to go into heating or cooling. If two zones need cooling and the other is satisfied or needs heating, then if the unit is in cooling the two zones that need cooling will drive their dampers open to let the cool air into the space and the other space will drive the damper closed or to a minimum position as the air temp is not satifactory to that space. We've got multiple systems out there that are similar to yours only they have 6 to 7 zones and they are all staying within 2-3 degrees of setpoint, generally closer to 2 but a couple of rooms are loaded up with computers so sometimes they get out closer to 3 degrees.
    Like Sysint said pricing is not allowed but definitely go out and get bids and seriously look at getting Lon stamped devices as that way if you find your service not up to speed you are not locked into one contractor. The other plus is if Johnson, Distech, TAC, Honeywell or whoever else builds a better Lon stamped device for your application you can intermingle devices that are Lon stamped. I could put a Distech heat pump controller with a TAC zone controller and all will communicate on the Lon network. It's a beautiful thing! - then to add to that you could also integrate security, lighting, etc - all on the same network.

    [Edited by crab master on 04-10-2005 at 07:19 PM]
    "How it can be considered "Open" is beyond me. Calling it "voyeur-ed" would be more accurate." pka LeroyMac, SkyIsBlue, fka Freddy-B, Mongo, IndyBlue
    BIG Government = More Dependents
    "Any 'standard' would be great if it didn't get bastardised by corporate self interest." MatrixTransform
    http://threedevilskennel.com/ - not my website.
    Versatile Hunting Dog Federation - www.vhdf.org/


  5. #5
    Thanks!

    Anyone know a good HVAC referral service for the So. Cal area? It looks like I should get another person to do the job. I don't think I'm getting the best advice from the technician I've got now.

    All your advice is really helpful, thank you!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Pacific Time Zone
    Posts
    4,206
    Is Linford Air still down there? I know a guy that used to work for them and he has good things to say about the company. I can't give you firsthand knowledge though - I work in the Northern Idaho/Eastern Washington area.
    "How it can be considered "Open" is beyond me. Calling it "voyeur-ed" would be more accurate." pka LeroyMac, SkyIsBlue, fka Freddy-B, Mongo, IndyBlue
    BIG Government = More Dependents
    "Any 'standard' would be great if it didn't get bastardised by corporate self interest." MatrixTransform
    http://threedevilskennel.com/ - not my website.
    Versatile Hunting Dog Federation - www.vhdf.org/


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    449
    There is a network of experienced LON integrators/contractors (Lontractors) at http://osa.echelon.com.
    lb
    A hundred million nodes - it's a LON story.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,763
    First I would deal with the existing system to see if your contractor could make it work. Second, his proposal of a Honewell zone system would also work and in that you would stay away from any sort of "propertiety" DDC system in which the installing contractor could eventually hold your building hostage with their software and/or controls.

    Paying that amount of money for that small of a building for features that you probably will not use is absurd to me. And you will get connected into that control manufacturers stuff whether you like it or not. You life as a property mangager will get more complicated.

    Stay with a brand available, system & software information system available equipment and you will be happy. Honeywell, California Economizer and a few other come to mind. But I would attempt to get what you have fixed first.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    Originally posted by esotericam
    Thanks!

    Anyone know a good HVAC referral service for the So. Cal area? It looks like I should get another person to do the job. I don't think I'm getting the best advice from the technician I've got now.

    All your advice is really helpful, thank you!
    Sure... see www

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Baton Rouge, Louisiana
    Posts
    3,892
    http://www.asicontrols.com They are in San Ramon, California.


    BTW not a band aid but a fix
    Quote Originally Posted by MatrixTransform View Post
    very soon it is you that will be pwned

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    1,311
    First have i seen this building before? Sounds familiar. Also why more band-aids? sounds like you are bleeding through the exsisting band-aids now.

    HVAC systems cost money, period. Control systems can be elaborate or simple, from the sound of it you definitely need a zoning system. Wether that is complex or basic is up to you. It is my understanding that Carrier and some other residential zoning system dampers and actuators cannot always stand the higher air pressures of commercial units. Just because you got bad news from your technician/company dos'nt mean he feeding a line of crap, or is unknowledgeable. It sounds as though this type of situation is working against him. You don't wanna pay out for the system but want the problem to go away, notice i said to go away not be fixed. He has to respond to all the calls, of which i would say are quite a bit of no repair needed comfort calls. And you are tired of getting the calls, being told to shell out money to fix it, and paying up in the mean time to respond to tennant complaints. Same ole situation, when will we just stop the madness and start doing business?

    If you put the system in and it dos'nt work, then at least you can go back to your HVAC Company and get them to fix it. But as long as they make a recommendation that you refuse to follow or find distasteful then they are guilt free. By the way why is that, people hire HVAC personel to do our job and then when we deliver our findings and quote a repair we are doubted and despised simply because of the cost?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    They don't perceive much value in their systems.... think about it..... they were considering a Carrier control system!

    CCN - Carrier Crap Network


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