My how have we digressed:
Registered: Dec 2002
I installed my own Panel box "because I know what I am doing" and saved myself $600.00 is that ok? Probably not if I posted this on an electrical forum
How did we go from a homeowner bought equipment on the internet and had it installed by "Hackmaster's" incompetent friend (the part time contractor) who should be able to do any kind of work or anything necessary as long as the money goes to feed his family.
So Mr billpro: how is your argument germain to this situation? It"s not about somebody who claims they know what they are doing installing something in there own home.
Registered: Nov 2003
shame shame mrbill...did you pull a permit on that bad boy??...if not these guys are gonna think your a hack.
Now the plot thickens and you want too chide us by making this a permit issue, who said anythingabout a permit other than you. But I wonder why any person that considers himself a professional member want to give the impression that permits are not necessary?
So I'll give the homeowner a warning:
Do not buy any HVAC Equipment on the internet because you'll buy the wrong thing, then you'll run into a "semi parttime/fulltime" contractor that will take your job even though he won't be able to install it completely,(because he hasn't applied himself completely to the trade)but go ahead anyway because the "contractor" needs the money to feed his family. The good news is even though the "contractor" who installed it won't be able to "fix it" he will have friends who will. If all "them" should have problems in diagnosing "your" problem they will be able to go back to the internet where "you" started and register as "professional members" and hopefully get the answer to your issues off the HVAC-Talk internet site.
It seems to me that some of you are saying: Even though licensing is required, permits are required, it's "ok" to skirt the system if:
A: You need the money
B: If you know what your doing
C: If you don't know what your doing but you have friends that do and you need the money?
Makes sense to me.
Hackmaster? You still continue to defend your "friend" yet why aren't you taking him to task for not recognizing a heatpump was being removed and an electric furnace and std. a/c package installed?
You claim this "friend" would lose money if he had to go to work for someone where he could obtain the some level of training (yet you say he does lots of installs) why is he not at the level yet that he dosen't recognize the differences in various standard equipment?
He never learn anything because "you" will rescue him. I mean really the guy can't wire up a std electric furnace and a/c. But I forgot he can do the high voltage to code (I assume by code you mean the NEC), but of course you say any idiot should be able to do that.
You said there will always be somebody to install this equipment that is bought of the internet:
In fact I think we have met several "SOMEBODIES".
Try To stay on point, make your case if you still feel justified in defending this argument, lets not get off on all the rabbit trails.
This debate will be will go down in HVAC-Talk history as:
The CLOWNS VS THE STOOGES
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“Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". -Vernon Law-
"Skilled Labor Isn't Cheap, Cheap Labor Isn't Skilled" - Unknown
Twilli pertaining to my "friend"..he felt awful stupid when I got out there and pointed out that it wasnt a heatpump he was trying to wire up but since he didnt purchase the unit or deliever it I can see how it "could" happen especially because the heat strip wiring diagram that came with this unit had a wiring diagram that included "O" and "B" terminal connection instructions. I doubt very seriously he will make the same mistake twice. Im sure youve never made any bone headed mistakes in hvac..naa not you. My "friend" is fulltime not part time. During the summer months many hvac companies use him as a subcontractor to install units when they get overloaded especially in new construction. Seldom do I get a call from him and when I do it usually is a difficult problem that he needs help with. Im sure your company doesnt have to use subcontractors cause daddy left you a big enough company where you have 4 or 5 install crews running up and down the road though so you might not be aware that many companies use subcontractors especially since you live in a state where a permit gets pulled for each and every job you go on. In the slow parts of the season "my friend" gets his jobs from his "church friends" to make it by untill it gets busy again. He does all this to feed his wife and 4 kids much like marko is trying to do. You probably dont have this prob cause "daddy" left you a big enough company where you dont have to worry about that. Twilli you arent living in the real world so most of what you are writing has no relevance here and I think you know it as well. Here are a few things you maybe shocked to find out.
Permits are not being pulled, venting (oh my god) is taking place, codes arent being followed, proper charging techniques arent being used ( that dang beer can cold method reers its ugly head) and the list goes on and on. Many of these taboos are happening in the biggest and best of companies...we all know it and so should you. We all know guys like "my friend" and if you dont then you havent been doing hvac very long. You have taken a post that was aimed at educating homeowner on the risk they undertake when purchasing hvac equipment from the internet and trying to save a buc and turned it into non relevant post. I really think most your post need to go in the general discussion group in all honest because I dont see how any of this is helping homeowners out. Now I have to go because "my friend" just called me and hes trying to soft solder a high pressure line.
JEEEZ........You guy,s need to go over to General Discussion and chat with FATEDDY.This is right up his alley.
thats funny ho's think they know it all
Originally posted by tinknocker service tech
1. no it doesnt make it right by any means and even they know it. just makes it real
2. they owner was not smart and we both know it
3. the installer showed his lack of knowlege about heat pumps and needs to learn more.
4 he wasnt very smart with this but i still dont think he is stupid
5 you make good points and great debate
this is not a perfect world and sometimes we have to be a little tolarent of others inabilities and dumb mistakes
like i said hope he learned from this one
5. hack maybe since you like this guy you should try to teach him rather then just help him out. that is how this industrie will get better. just helping doesnt do a thing for him or the people he is working for.
now lets get back to the isue at hand
my points are made and i stand by them
the guy is a conctractop so what more is to say on that
i am not going to cast stones at all here because i dont see what i will gain from it or what anyone will either
mow for the record and any one can tell me i am wrong
i have known many service techs over the years and as of one i have working for me now that dont have a clue about install. great techs and know thier **** but when it comes to install wouldnt know where to begin. are they hacks to.
i am sure they fix units for friends and family.
i know installers that can make medal sing and dance but dont have a clue about service. some cant even wire a t stat. are they hacks to. a lot of companies have two department install and service because of this. if the installers have a problem well out goes the service tech.
so are you saying if you cant do both then you should not be in this trade. or if you cant do both your a hack
get real. how many of your service techs can install a system without help from an installer. and the other way arround. not very many have had the benifit of both worlds like you or me. most are limited to what they have been doing. this is why i dont cast stones.
i have made my stupid mistakes over the years it is part of the learnig curve. i cut the return in the side of a furnace once and put the return shoe on to just to find out when i stood the furnace up it was cut into the heat exchanger not the return.. dam i felt stupid. the boss said did you learn anything and send a new furnace
had to great installers just last year replace a gsr14 pulse counter flo with a g61 multi pos. went there that night arround 8pm no heat just to find they install it in the up flo position. **** happens ofcourse they redid it and had to explain to the coustmer and say they were sorry
hacks no way. not paying attention yes do they know better with out any dout
it is not a perfect world and it never will be
So when all else fails attack my deceased father and my spelling.
Hackmaster called some of us clowns.
I assume I have the priveledge of being one.
I will work on my spelling, I promise.
Just for Hack's general knowledge I have been totally in charge of my company since 1983. That said of course I've made terrible errors over the years. However I continue to try and improve myself and my employees through training.
I have haven't called anyone in this post a hack.
I feel very fortunate that my Dad was in this business and laid a foundation that I could build upon.
My whole point has been and still is:
If Hack's friend is out there contracting for a living shouldn't he be able to complete the entire job? Yes I'm aware that some companies including ours has "installers" and "service tech's" but if your contracting shouldn't you have risen to a higher level?
Remember Hack started this by saying:
A friend of mine installs hvac equipment whenever and however he can do it...he cannot do the wiring and has very limited knowlege of any service type work that needs to be done to a unit and has limited troubleshooting skills so he calls on me to cover his back whenever problems arise or he needs help wiring something.
A question would be if he ran the low voltage wiring outside
which a kid on his second job should be able to do, shouldn't an "expiernced" installer have seen that there were only 2 low voltage wires?
Isn't the fact that someone is willing to take this Homeowners job on just perpetuate the problem of buying off the internet? Hack why aren't you mad at your friend. Why did you come to his aid, aren't you contributing to the problem that you are complaining about?
I hope I didn't spell anything wrong. I apologize in advance
I don't want to be accussed of being a hack speller.
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Twilli sorry for the loss of your father...im sure he was a great man and I seriously mean that. I too have lost both parents so I know the feeling. My point in bringing that up was to say that it is very fortunate for you that you had such an opportunity as many who start a business up dont have that foundation...running the business is no less hard and I understand that. However remember that in this particular instance a package unit was taking the place of a spilt system heat pump. My friend had already ran the correct tstat wire prior to the package unit arrival. This unit was replacing a heat pump not a split straight air system. He made his bone head era when he assumed it was actually a heat pump and didnt check to see if it had a reversing valve. A portion of the wiring diagram did have O and B terminal hookups he got confused and began questioning if he was wiring this thing correctly and he didnt take the time to sit and think this thing out before he called me out. When I pointed this out to him he felt like the biggest idiot on earth but it happens and wont be the last time. I make mistakes sometimes that make me feel like a complete imbecile but I try to learn from them. No the guy cant do very much service work but he is able to correctly charge a unit using the proper methods and he has gotten alot better with his low voltage wiring hook ups especially on split system heat pumps. The companies that use him as a subcontractor know his limitations and work within them as do the the residential homeowners who use his services when they buy their own units. A person can do a great install but yet not know the first thing about fixing one...virtually all install crews are made up of this type individual. I personally see no problem with what he does because as I said before he does great work and when he has a problem with electrical or whatever he doesnt guess he calls in someone who knows and he does learn from that...we get fewer and fewer calls from him. The people who use his services also realise that for warranty work on repairs they will have to look elsewhere..they know it up front and I never do warranty calls for him. Now is this the way it should be done???..I guess thats a matter of oppinion but I will never belittle a man for trying to build a business and learn at the same time especially when he does the type of installs this individual does.
I do understand that some people are good at installation and some are good at service. Some are good at both. Some are good at neither. I wasn't really trying to personally attack your friend or his actual workmanship.
Please don't think as well that we have not struggled, most of the time the bigger the company the bigger the nut to crack, more that just my family to feed. I have other people's families that need to be fed as well.
If "we" havc contractors want to slow down the sales to people via the internet them "we" need to be able to say no to installing it. Or at least "we" shouldn't do it for wages. "We" should charge top dollar if "we" do it at all.
It seemed to me that you wanted to chide the homeowner, ok, but what about your friend? If "we" install equipment purchased via the internet aren't "we" part of the problem?
Hack, you want to warn them don't do it, you wont' have any warranty, you might get the wrong stuff, you might get bad install, but even if you do we'll clean it up.
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In a perfect world no hvac equipment or even parts could be bought by anyone other than a licensed hvac contractor..then we wouldnt have this problem. But you and I both know that will never happen. And even if it did homeowners and DIY's would find a way around it. These are the people who use my friend and really arent in my target customer base so I dont let it bug me because it doesnt effect my business and he does good work. To be honest it probably did no good whatsoever to warn homeowners of this because they are gonna do it anyway...at the very least weve had good conversation and debate and Ive probably improved my typing skills somewhat.
to bad you live so far away. we could have a beer and sit and talk about this for hours. you make good points and and you are right about most. as far as spelling you do a lot better then me. cant type so makes spelling even harder
learning curve again i guess. i have the upmost respect for a guy that can make it on his own. i have a good friend that took over his fathers co. and his father watched him run it into the ground over ten years. what a shame. tried to help him many times but side job mentality just dont cut it. i treid it some years ago and didnt make it so if you did and are doing good for your guys my hats off to you.as far as this post we could go on forever and say almost the same thing and it will come out the same
dont help teach
home owner take you chances
you put it in know what you are putting in
warrenti doesnt apply in a contractor doest sell it
and most of all no matter how we twist and turn and squirm it dont post something when all in the post are makeing the same mistake
what i didnt say is as far as i am concerned
this ho no mater how he got the unit is now a coustomer and should have been treeted as one. once you take on a job you cant just say it is in now dont bother me again
you are still responsable for the install and he in now your coustomer for the futher if you plan on staying in bussness
thanks to everyone for listening and giving me some insights
You right ther will always be somebody somewhere. I really don't care if they sell equipment on the internet or not. I really don't get upset about it.
Long before the internet people were able to buy equipment somewhere. I know a lot of supply house that will sell across the counter. They sell to "installers" that develop relationships thru "us". What are you going to really do about it? Nothing. Rag on each other? Most of the time we are just preaching to the choir.
I'm done ragging.....
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Tinnocker don't worry about your spelling, And I'm not taking a shot at mr bill but I never make reference to anybodies spelling. Your ok in my book. I know what you mean and thats all that matters.
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