Warning to homeowners (DIY)

[Roscoe]

Projects for Experts
The following projects are probably best saved for professionals:


Major kitchen and bathroom upgrades
These projects not only require demolition but reconstruction in most cases. They also require electrical and plumbing expertise. Not recommended for the beginning do-it-yourselfer.

Major landscape and exterior improvements
Larger exterior projects (such as installing a brick patio, replacing a driveway, or painting the entire house) often require special skills or experience. Materials and tools involved, such as hot blacktop or a concrete mixer, can be hazardous.

Replacement or upgrade of plumbing, electrical, heating and cooling systems, roof, windows, or doors
When it comes to your home's operating systems, it is almost always necessary to hire an expert. Windows and doors are less technical and can be handled by an experienced do-it-yourselfer.

[Twilly]

Tinnocker: you said:. so i wont cast any stones here. the installer did the right thing and called someone that knows. to bad the home owner was stupid though

So the original installer was smart?

He didn't even know it wasn't a heat pump.

He didn't say: So Mr. Homewoner you want to remove your heatpump and air handler and install and electric furnace and a/c unit. That's going to cost you a lot more for utilities. Have you thought this through?

So your premise is is the "guy" needs money it's ok? He knows his limitations, obviuosly he doesn't because he was trying to wire up the thermostat.

Maybe I'll take up Doctoring, I could use the money, I know my limitations and I'll just call in a "real" doctor if I can't get the patient sewed up right.

Dr. Bozo at your service

[Edited by twilli3967 on 04-09-2005 at 03:29 PM]

[tinknocker service tech]

twilli3967
where in my post did you read smart? i said right thing!
he knew he was in over his head and called his friend.
is he a good installer who knows. does he know what he is doing again i dont know. did he make a big mistake? yes on many issues. is the home owner stupid? yes with out any dout in my mind. first he purchased the unit. then got the wrong one heheheh. then got the cheapest price to have it installed. the installer either didnt know what he was installing or didnt care but put it in anyway. did he put it in properly well hack said he did. i dont know wasnt there. did the owner check this guy out? no. it seens to me the owner paid him to install it and the guy did. right or wrong unit does not matter. on all accounts the owner wass stupid. who ever this installer is however qualified he should stick to what he knows untill he knows more
with that beeing said. i was sticking up for the guys the know what they are doing and once in a while do something on thier own. i addmit not to long ago sometimes i would do a job for someone that asked. when things were tight and i needed something for my kids or then wife. thank god for divorce hehehe. there will allways be homeowners that want to save and guys that need the money. doesnt make them hacks just hungry or need the cash.they dont make much of a differance in the market or take anything from anyone. no more than the back yard machanic does.
it also does not mean they are not trained or good. we all have made mistakes and some were big ones. one can only hope this guy learned from his mistake and look over the unit, tell the owner the deal before he puts it in if he didnt do just that. we dont know hack didnt say

[hackmaster]

lol twilli isnt that what a nurse practitioner is? I mean they can write prescriptions, diagnose ills ect..but if the real probs come in they call for the big dogs to handle it. So think of my friend as a hvac practitioner...he does an install..does it very well but..if there are any bugs he calls me or one of a bunch of other knowlegable friends he has in. The thing of the matter is this. He gets these jobs thru the church he goes thru for the main part as well as word of mouth like we all do. The people that get him to do installs are not going to call guys like me out to do it because im too expensive..they are looking for cheap installs and to save money. They are never going to call so called legitimate hvac companies out with our big yellow page ads because they either cant afford it or are not willing to pay the price. Well as stated earliar as long as there is a market for the cheap install guy then they will always be around..no sense in continued bitching about it...its just the way it is. Now this particular individual happens to do a fine job when he does work and I know thats not the norm but it is in this case..so ive got no prob going behind him and helping the guy out...again all work he does is by code or better or else i wouldnt even attempt to help the guy. If you want to call my friend a hack then go ahead..no biggy to me...if he is a hack hes a damn good one and does better work than 90 percent of new home contruction i see these days. In all honesty i see more probs and cheats in the licensed hvac industry than I do from hacks i come across but thats another story for another day...im done here.

[Twilly]

My point was that you said the homeowner wasn't smart. My point was that since the homeowner wasn't smart was the installer?

You too have failed to address the points in my post.

So if a guy needs money that makes it ok????????

It looks as though HACH has left the building.



DR Bozo, PHD,PE,MD,GOPHER

[hackmaster]

Twilli one finale thought...many of us on this board didnt get to walk into an established family business such as you have done...nothing wrong with that and more power to you. But some of us had to start our companies up without a pot to piss in and have grown into major players much like your grandfather or father did for you...my friend is one of these individuals who is doing this as we speak and I came from a similar background...i guess you could say im a former hack. But untill you walk a mile in the shoes such as my friend wears you will not know how difficult it can be. Now in a perfect world he should go work for an ac company and get training in his weak areas or go to school. School isnt an option for him so hes learning service at a much slower pace but he is getting trained by people like me. He puts in so many units that he would take a cut in pay to go work as an apprentice service man...so hes taking the slow training route..in my mind its perfectly fine given the quality work the guy does.

[hackmaster]

No the homeowner wasnt smart and ive already detailed why he wasnt. That doesnt mean my friend is an idiot though..it just means that any homeowner that wants to go this route is taking a crap shoot...hes not gonna have any warranty and he may get a crap install. In this instance he got a great install but it was the wrong equipment and in this instance all the blame has to lie with the homeowner.

[tinknocker service tech]

twilli3967

1. no it doesnt make it right by any means and even they know it. just makes it real
2. they owner was not smart and we both know it
3. the installer showed his lack of knowlege about heat pumps and needs to learn more.
4 he wasnt very smart with this but i still dont think he is stupid
5 you make good points and great debate
this is not a perfect world and sometimes we have to be a little tolarent of others inabilities and dumb mistakes
like i said hope he learned from this one
5. hack maybe since you like this guy you should try to teach him rather then just help him out. that is how this industrie will get better. just helping doesnt do a thing for him or the people he is working for.

[stephy]

I'm sorry Hackmaster....since he gets his business through his church it makes it all OK.....

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by tinknocker service tech
hackmaster
we should all face the fact, as long as there is a market for the homeowner to buy equipment internet or elswhere
they will buy it. very few of us are well off or have plenty on money. so if a guy finds a need to do an install of this kind hell why not. he is earning a few bucks to get by or feed his family or whatever

Hard to disagree with that statement!

[Mr Bill]

I installed my own Panel box "because I know what I am doing" and saved myself $600.00 is that ok? Probably not if I posted this on an electrical forum.

[hackmaster]

shame shame mrbill...did you pull a permit on that bad boy??...if not these guys are gonna think your a hack.

[Mr Bill]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hackmaster
[B]shame shame mrbill...did you pull a permit on that bad boy??

Man, I knew there was something I was missing! but I know it's right I got the instructions from Home Depot.

[markco]

Originally posted by mrbillpro

Originally posted by tinknocker service tech
hackmaster
we should all face the fact, as long as there is a market for the homeowner to buy equipment internet or elswhere
they will buy it. very few of us are well off or have plenty on money. so if a guy finds a need to do an install of this kind hell why not. he is earning a few bucks to get by or feed his family or whatever

Hard to disagree with that statement!

Thanks tinknocker and mrbillpro. I've been following this post with some feelings of guilt. I just finished installing a Luxaire furnace for a neighbor, who got it through his brother-in-law. My neighbor pulled a permit, and will have the install inspected. I am 110% it will pass, because I did an excellent job installing it. Am I taking business away from my boss? No, because of some bad business decisions on his part, I've been laid off for 2 months. I have a wife and 2 year old son that depend on me for income, and a mortgage to pay. And with the job market REALLY slow in this region for HVAC, I probably won't be finding any openings soon. I also have an A/C install lined up with my in-laws neighbor, and I'll probably feel a little guilty about that too, but I have to put food on the table for my family and pay bills.

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by markco
I've been laid off for 2 months. I have a wife and 2 year old son that depend on me for income, and a mortgage to pay. And with the job market REALLY slow in this region for HVAC, I probably won't be finding any openings soon. I also have an A/C install lined up with my in-laws neighbor, and I'll probably feel a little guilty about that too, but I have to put food on the table for my family and pay bills.

Say no more brother!! at least you are trying and not just giving up and living off the Government, you want my advise do whatever it takes to take care of your family, and if you had someone pull a permit and you feel good about the job, well enough said I don't think there are many here that would condemn you for that.

[tinknocker service tech]

markco
Professional Member


do what you have to do
good luck finding something
these people are going to use someone and not someones bos either. might as well be someone who knows what he is doing. just make sure you get permits or the fines will kill you

[hackmaster]

Marko as long as you are knowlegable and did a good job by the codes its not a hack job so dont get down on yourself. Now the homeowner wont have any warranty but im sure hes aware of this. My warning was to homeowners trying to buy equipment on the internet and fully expecting to have guaranteed warranties and thinking they know more than they acually do and end up getting bitten such as the one i detailed in the origional post. I do have some advice for you that you might find helpful. I dont know where you live but some states have a speciallty contractors license that you can obtain that will enable you to be in business for yourself in hvac legally and you can service and install units in your own business. To obtain initial customers hit the street and cold call businesses like a mad dog and create a customer base in commercial work to start then word of mouth will spread you into residential..it takes a couple of very lean years to do this. After that advertise yellow page wise and get your state contractors license. If you do this it will suck at first but after you have sucess you will never go back to work for the man again and will line your pockets. Do what you have to do to feed your family so dont ever feel bad about that. Good luck to you bro.

[Edited by hackmaster on 04-10-2005 at 12:45 AM]

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by hackmaster
My warning was to homeowners trying to buy equipment on the internet and fully expecting to have guaranteed warranties and thinking they know more than they acually do and end up getting bitten such as the one i detailed in the origional post.

Your right and we got carried away now how did that happen? that never happens here.

[tinknocker service tech]

what do you mean carried away. hehehehehehehe
hack your right truth is only the contractor can give a true warrenti. not the internet or suppy house
and there is the differance
they may tell you has a warrenti but only we can back it up properly

[Twilly]

My how have we digressed:
mrbillpro
Professional Member

Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1361
I installed my own Panel box "because I know what I am doing" and saved myself $600.00 is that ok? Probably not if I posted this on an electrical forum

How did we go from a homeowner bought equipment on the internet and had it installed by "Hackmaster's" incompetent friend (the part time contractor) who should be able to do any kind of work or anything necessary as long as the money goes to feed his family.


So Mr billpro: how is your argument germain to this situation? It"s not about somebody who claims they know what they are doing installing something in there own home.

hackmaster
Professional Member

Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 850
shame shame mrbill...did you pull a permit on that bad boy??...if not these guys are gonna think your a hack.

Now the plot thickens and you want too chide us by making this a permit issue, who said anythingabout a permit other than you. But I wonder why any person that considers himself a professional member want to give the impression that permits are not necessary?

So I'll give the homeowner a warning:

Do not buy any HVAC Equipment on the internet because you'll buy the wrong thing, then you'll run into a "semi parttime/fulltime" contractor that will take your job even though he won't be able to install it completely,(because he hasn't applied himself completely to the trade)but go ahead anyway because the "contractor" needs the money to feed his family. The good news is even though the "contractor" who installed it won't be able to "fix it" he will have friends who will. If all "them" should have problems in diagnosing "your" problem they will be able to go back to the internet where "you" started and register as "professional members" and hopefully get the answer to your issues off the HVAC-Talk internet site.

It seems to me that some of you are saying: Even though licensing is required, permits are required, it's "ok" to skirt the system if:

A: You need the money

B: If you know what your doing

C: If you don't know what your doing but you have friends that do and you need the money?

Makes sense to me.


Hackmaster? You still continue to defend your "friend" yet why aren't you taking him to task for not recognizing a heatpump was being removed and an electric furnace and std. a/c package installed?

You claim this "friend" would lose money if he had to go to work for someone where he could obtain the some level of training (yet you say he does lots of installs) why is he not at the level yet that he dosen't recognize the differences in various standard equipment?

He never learn anything because "you" will rescue him. I mean really the guy can't wire up a std electric furnace and a/c. But I forgot he can do the high voltage to code (I assume by code you mean the NEC), but of course you say any idiot should be able to do that.

Tinnocker:

You said there will always be somebody to install this equipment that is bought of the internet:

I agree.

In fact I think we have met several "SOMEBODIES".

Try To stay on point, make your case if you still feel justified in defending this argument, lets not get off on all the rabbit trails.

This debate will be will go down in HVAC-Talk history as:

The CLOWNS VS THE STOOGES

Your turn.