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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    North Las Vegas
    Posts
    764
    Originally posted by hackmaster
    A friend of mine installs hvac equipment whenever and however he can do it...he cannot do the wiring and has very limited knowlege of any service type work that needs to be done to a unit and has limited troubleshooting skills so he calls on me to cover his back whenever problems arise or he needs help wiring something.
    Now the gentlemen in question who installed this unit is an expert installer with the exception of being able to troubleshoot electrical problems. He has no problem installing main voltage to the units and running tstat line and mounting tstat and all his installs adhere strictly to code and beyond. On many installs I do with my company I use this individual to install.

    So which is it he can or can't ?

    Either way it doesn't take an Einstein to figuire out that by your posting your friend most likely isn't going to be covering a warranty installation either so the homeowner has lost even more.

    Most of the people on here will tell you that price does not reflect whether a person is a hack or not, its whether or not they do do quality work and are able to service the equipment they legaly install and are licensed to provide such services in their areas.

    Just because someone stayed at a Holiday Inn Express the night before doesn't make them an expert the next day either lol

    But hopefully the homeowner and others learned a valuble lesson in this which I think was the intent of the post.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat. (President Theodore Roosevelt)

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, United States
    Posts
    12,896
    Originally posted by hackmaster
    Take head of this message and you might save yourself so money. A friend of mine installs hvac equipment whenever and however he can do it...he cannot do the wiring and has very limited knowlege of any service type work that needs to be done to a unit and has limited troubleshooting skills so he calls on me to cover his back whenever problems arise or he needs help wiring something. Ok here is the story. He called me today and said he needed help getting a package heat pump started...he had installed it for a homeowner who had bought the unit over the internet in order to supposedly save some money. My friend calls me up saying its installed but he fears hes done something wrong in the low voltage wiring circuit because the thermostat is not energizing the unit. When I get there he tells me that the homeowner had him pull out an older but working split system heat pump so he could put a newer 12 seer package heat pump in that he had bought off the internet. The homeowner was very proud of himself that he had saved so much money by doing this and found my friend who installed it at a very reduced price thus getting a very very cheap install and getting a efficient system to boot. When i heard what the owner paid for the 4 ton package heat pump I was impressed because it was indeed lower than what I can even buy such a unit for (goodman).
    Upon further investigation however I noticed that this unit was not in fact a heat pump but was a straight air package system with electric heat only (15kw heat strips).
    So I went ahead and fixed the wiring problem...replaced the heat pump t-stat with the appropriate t-stat for his unit and gave the homeowner the bad news. The homeowner had removed a more efficient heat pump and had installed a less efficient and more expensive to operate electric heat system. His smile quickly faded and he was no longer proud of himself. He states that he specificly ordered a heat pump and thought thats what he got...however any knowlegable hvac guy would have known it wasnt right off the bat by looking the unit over and reading the bill of sale...but since he went the cheap route he got bit. Not only that but I informed him that his 10 year warranty he also purchased from the internet company was virtually useless as most goodman distributors in my area will only warranty parts on units that were bought thru them...thats the way it is in my area. So if he ever needs a warranty part he most likely will have to wait a day or so on parts to be shipped to him via overnight delivery and will pay additional freight for this. Now hes contemplating removing the new system that was just installed because he now knows how high his heating bills will be next winter. So let this be a lesson for the diy masters out there....there is a place for diy but hvac is not one of them. Also the price he got on the system he bought over the internet turned out to be much much higher than if he had gotten the system locally. Live and learn..there are no free lunches.
    A friend of mine installs hvac equipment whenever and however he can do it...he cannot do the wiring and has very limited knowlege of any service type work that needs to be done to a unit and has limited troubleshooting skills

    however any knowlegable hvac guy would have known it wasnt right off the bat by looking the unit over and reading the bill of sale.

    You may not be A Hack, I am not implying you are. But it seems to come back and defend your friend now is a little late it seems to me that you destroyed any credibility that he had in you first post.

    I mean really the guy must not be able to read. If he even attempted to wire up the outdoor unit he should have seen there were only two low voltage wires.

    The guy maybe a decent guy trying to scratch out a living and may even have a license put I would have doubts that he took even a rudementary level test to obtain it.

    I would also think if he's this great installer that some of these minor wiring problems wouldn't overwhelm him.
    Although I will say in your defense that I have seen great sheetmetal installers and they often lacked the ability to deal with wiring issues if there was a problem.

    However if the your friend can't do the entire install of a simple heat pump or in this case an electric furnace and a/c unit and didn't even know it maybe he shouldn't be contracting.

    What state are you in by the way. It sounds a little bit like Ohio where you can still operate without a license in some counties.

    Also a I have often wondered why people don't show there own credentials

    [Edited by twilli3967 on 04-09-2005 at 08:22 AM]
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, United States
    Posts
    12,896
    [

    [Edited by twilli3967 on 04-09-2005 at 08:13 AM]
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    1,167
    Put it this way. Just because you can install a unit doesnt mean you can operate an hvac business. This is what my friend tries to do on a limited basis. I do not consider him a hack because he does quality work within his means and when he gets stuck on any wiring he doesnt guess he gets me or other friends he has in the hvac industry to give him a hand. Hes not the only one like this by the way. Again I will say as before that he cant troubleshoot electrical or mechanical in a unit but he installs a helluva unit. He can run wire from breaker box to point b but any fool can do that...he does it by code though. Now the purpose of my post was to provide information to homeowners with useful information that may help them in future dealings with hvac and not make the mistake other homeowners make. I did not come on here to discuss hacking with you clowns..its a waste of my time but something tells me you guys on this homeowner board spend alot of time discussing this type thing..thats fine but im not wasting any more of my time with it because its pointless and has no useful value to any on this board. As far as the warranty on this unit goes I think it goes without saying that the homeowner was gonna have great difficulty with this when he purchased his own unit over the internet...wouldnt think i would have to expand further on that point.

    [Edited by hackmaster on 04-09-2005 at 11:16 AM]

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, United States
    Posts
    12,896
    Hackmaster you really skirted the issue and didn't address any of my points other than try to defend your actions and those of your unqualified "friend".

    Now after being called out by several people. You decide to call them (us) clowns and run away. Maybe you should rethink your actions in this situation.

    Aren't you an enabler? Shouldn't your friend be able to stand on his own?

    We are not talking about extremely complicated service issue here.

    Aren't you enableing home owners who purchase equipment over the internet and then contractors like you come to there rescue, when the incompetent "contractor" they have chosen is not able to get the unit up and running?

    Why should this offend you that people have called you down on this issue?

    Maybe you should tuck your tail and run. Because, I hope you see the truth in what I have said.

    I'm not trying to be critical of you just pointing out somethings that affect "our" industry. If we continue to enable "our" incompetent competitors it takes work for all of us who have paided our dues.

    Maybe this guy shouldn't be in business for himself, but working for someone where he could obtain the training that he obviuosly needs.

    Too many people go into business way too soon and if "we" continue to bail them out who does it really hurt?

    Just my thoughts, Can I be BOZO? He was always my favorite.
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Suppy NC
    Posts
    4,510
    hackmaster

    we should all face the fact, as long as there is a market for the homeowner to buy equipment internet or elswhere
    they will buy it. very few of us are welloff or have plenty on money. so if a guy finds a need to do an install of this kind hell why not. he is earning a few bucks to get by or feed his family or whatever
    at least he knows his limatations and calls someone he trusts to help him out. if he were a real hack he would just screw it all up and run for cover. lets face it how many of us in times of need or for a few extra bucks for our family have done a side job or two.
    me for one, still remembers what it is like not to have enough at the end of the month or when the kids want something and cant afford it. so i wont cast any stones here. the installer did the right thing and called someone that knows. to bad the home owner was stupid though

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    GEORGIA
    Posts
    1,532

    Smile

    Just my luck...BOZO is already taken...where's the white-out I need to change my application...

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Yo.... Here!, I'm right here..
    Posts
    6,236

    Pulled this off of MSN's front page

    Projects for Experts
    The following projects are probably best saved for professionals:


    Major kitchen and bathroom upgrades
    These projects not only require demolition but reconstruction in most cases. They also require electrical and plumbing expertise. Not recommended for the beginning do-it-yourselfer.

    Major landscape and exterior improvements
    Larger exterior projects (such as installing a brick patio, replacing a driveway, or painting the entire house) often require special skills or experience. Materials and tools involved, such as hot blacktop or a concrete mixer, can be hazardous.

    Replacement or upgrade of plumbing, electrical, heating and cooling systems, roof, windows, or doors
    When it comes to your home's operating systems, it is almost always necessary to hire an expert. Windows and doors are less technical and can be handled by an experienced do-it-yourselfer.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, United States
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    12,896
    Tinnocker: you said:. so i wont cast any stones here. the installer did the right thing and called someone that knows. to bad the home owner was stupid though

    So the original installer was smart?

    He didn't even know it wasn't a heat pump.

    He didn't say: So Mr. Homewoner you want to remove your heatpump and air handler and install and electric furnace and a/c unit. That's going to cost you a lot more for utilities. Have you thought this through?

    So your premise is is the "guy" needs money it's ok? He knows his limitations, obviuosly he doesn't because he was trying to wire up the thermostat.

    Maybe I'll take up Doctoring, I could use the money, I know my limitations and I'll just call in a "real" doctor if I can't get the patient sewed up right.

    Dr. Bozo at your service

    [Edited by twilli3967 on 04-09-2005 at 03:29 PM]
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Suppy NC
    Posts
    4,510
    twilli3967
    where in my post did you read smart? i said right thing!
    he knew he was in over his head and called his friend.
    is he a good installer who knows. does he know what he is doing again i dont know. did he make a big mistake? yes on many issues. is the home owner stupid? yes with out any dout in my mind. first he purchased the unit. then got the wrong one heheheh. then got the cheapest price to have it installed. the installer either didnt know what he was installing or didnt care but put it in anyway. did he put it in properly well hack said he did. i dont know wasnt there. did the owner check this guy out? no. it seens to me the owner paid him to install it and the guy did. right or wrong unit does not matter. on all accounts the owner wass stupid. who ever this installer is however qualified he should stick to what he knows untill he knows more
    with that beeing said. i was sticking up for the guys the know what they are doing and once in a while do something on thier own. i addmit not to long ago sometimes i would do a job for someone that asked. when things were tight and i needed something for my kids or then wife. thank god for divorce hehehe. there will allways be homeowners that want to save and guys that need the money. doesnt make them hacks just hungry or need the cash.they dont make much of a differance in the market or take anything from anyone. no more than the back yard machanic does.
    it also does not mean they are not trained or good. we all have made mistakes and some were big ones. one can only hope this guy learned from his mistake and look over the unit, tell the owner the deal before he puts it in if he didnt do just that. we dont know hack didnt say

  11. #24
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    Nov 2003
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    1,167
    lol twilli isnt that what a nurse practitioner is? I mean they can write prescriptions, diagnose ills ect..but if the real probs come in they call for the big dogs to handle it. So think of my friend as a hvac practitioner...he does an install..does it very well but..if there are any bugs he calls me or one of a bunch of other knowlegable friends he has in. The thing of the matter is this. He gets these jobs thru the church he goes thru for the main part as well as word of mouth like we all do. The people that get him to do installs are not going to call guys like me out to do it because im too expensive..they are looking for cheap installs and to save money. They are never going to call so called legitimate hvac companies out with our big yellow page ads because they either cant afford it or are not willing to pay the price. Well as stated earliar as long as there is a market for the cheap install guy then they will always be around..no sense in continued *****ing about it...its just the way it is. Now this particular individual happens to do a fine job when he does work and I know thats not the norm but it is in this case..so ive got no prob going behind him and helping the guy out...again all work he does is by code or better or else i wouldnt even attempt to help the guy. If you want to call my friend a hack then go ahead..no biggy to me...if he is a hack hes a damn good one and does better work than 90 percent of new home contruction i see these days. In all honesty i see more probs and cheats in the licensed hvac industry than I do from hacks i come across but thats another story for another day...im done here.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, United States
    Posts
    12,896
    My point was that you said the homeowner wasn't smart. My point was that since the homeowner wasn't smart was the installer?

    You too have failed to address the points in my post.

    So if a guy needs money that makes it ok????????

    It looks as though HACH has left the building.



    DR Bozo, PHD,PE,MD,GOPHER
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    1,167
    Twilli one finale thought...many of us on this board didnt get to walk into an established family business such as you have done...nothing wrong with that and more power to you. But some of us had to start our companies up without a pot to piss in and have grown into major players much like your grandfather or father did for you...my friend is one of these individuals who is doing this as we speak and I came from a similar background...i guess you could say im a former hack. But untill you walk a mile in the shoes such as my friend wears you will not know how difficult it can be. Now in a perfect world he should go work for an ac company and get training in his weak areas or go to school. School isnt an option for him so hes learning service at a much slower pace but he is getting trained by people like me. He puts in so many units that he would take a cut in pay to go work as an apprentice service man...so hes taking the slow training route..in my mind its perfectly fine given the quality work the guy does.

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