Apples to Apples?

[hearter]

Hello everyone...

My wife and I are building a home this Spring. I have gotten quotes from several different HVAC installers. My question is, are we comparing apples to apples in these two units. Both of these quotes are without backhoe work...

The first one is a 1 Carrier 50YDV038_CB351 3 ton upflow 2 stage Water source heat pump with hot water return. 1 15kw heater. 1 flow control 1 pump, 1 hose kit and fittings, 1 sound pad, 1 programmable thermostat, lot supply and ductwork, lost supply and return air grilles and registers, plenums, 3 ton geo loop piping, misc material.

cost - $$$$$

Second one is a Climate Master TTV049AGC01ARKS Tran 27, 2 stage goe unit with media air filter, hot water gen, ecm blower motor, thermostat, 15kw heat strip, brass two pump flow controller, plastic hard pad, ground loop, ductwork, registers and grills.

cost - $$$$$$
This is all that was written on the quotes I recieved.

This will be for a 2000-2100 sq ft home in the midwest. I have plenty of land to do a horizontal loop.

$$$$$ dollars is quite a big difference so you can see my concern.

[ga-hvac-tech]

I am not a GEO guy... so I am speaking from the outside:

Might want to look at the specs of each unit... to see if they are apples to apples... also there are more items in the second quote.

Carrier, while they are a HUGE manufacturer of residential HVAC equipment, is not primarily a GEO co... and I suspect their units may be built by someone else. Might want to check that also... However, here is what is important:

Installation.

Unlike most products where one compares similar to a commodity... the installation of the equipment is the most important part of a heating and air conditioning system. If it were me, I would look for references of the contractors... and talk to folks that have done business with the specific contractors you talk to. Did the work go well, did they do as they said they would, did the system work as it was sold to, how much service was needed to keep the system working, if there was any warranty work, was it done thoroughly and paid for by the co... or was there a deductible, etc, etc, etc... The point is to see how it works out long term... rather than look at the $$$ up front. If up front cost is the issue... then GEO is an extravagant route IMO.

BTW: Forum rules prohibit pricing in a post... might want to edit and remove the pricing.

[hearter]

Sorry about the pricing in the post. I'm not sure how to edit my post so if someone could please take out the pricing, i'd appreciate it.

Upfront cost really isn't a factor as we ARE going to put Geo in our house, we'd be stupid not to, but the price difference IS a factor if we're comparing apples to apples.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Sorry about the pricing in the post. I'm not sure how to edit my post so if someone could please take out the pricing, i'd appreciate it.

Upfront cost really isn't a factor as we ARE going to put Geo in our house, we'd be stupid not to, but the price difference IS a factor if we're comparing apples to apples.

The forum moderators will be along soon to edit out the pricing... They are good about that.

IMO: Ask a lot of questions, chat with customers of the contractor(s) you are interested in, do your online research of the products... Just remember that installation is the key to a system that lasts its life and does not require much service beyond what is normal.

[hearter]

I spoke with the contractor that had the higher quote. He said that quote was for a 4 ton 2 stage unit. The other is a 3 ton 2 stage unit. I think I have my answer.

Thanks all

[George2]

I spoke with the contractor that had the higher quote. He said that quote was for a 4 ton 2 stage unit. The other is a 3 ton 2 stage unit. I think I have my answer.

Thanks all

You'll love the Geothermal system. ClimateMaster makes the Carrier. I was going to say that one is a 3 ton and one is a 4 ton.

A Manual J needs to be performed before you move forward with the wrong size.

The 4 ton cost more because of the unit and pump but also because of the extra ground loop. Plus, it takes more ductwork (if done properly.

I would probably recommend a 30-40 kw package for back-up. The extra cost is nothing really.

I can't believe you're getting all of that for the money. I sell them for that on a retrofit.

[mstrblstr3]

Water Furnace has a three and half ton unit that would be perfect for the size home you described.
While oversizing sounds like extra insurance, your efficiencies will suffer.
The two stage option will help with this but the extra cost of loop field and equiptment is hard to make up.
If you want highest efficient unit available, Water Furnace now has a variable speed compressor matched with variable loop pumps that boasts the highest SEERS on the planet. While the release date isn't till the fourth quarter, it would well be worth the wait. Find yourself a Geopro dealer off their website and step into the future.

[can2man]

You'll love the Geothermal system. ClimateMaster makes the Carrier. I was going to say that one is a 3 ton and one is a 4 ton.

A Manual J needs to be performed before you move forward with the wrong size.

The 4 ton cost more because of the unit and pump but also because of the extra ground loop. Plus, it takes more ductwork (if done properly.

I would probably recommend a 30-40 kw package for back-up. The extra cost is nothing really.

I can't believe you're getting all of that for the money. I sell them for that on a retrofit.

No kidding I couldn't even touch that price.

[mstrblstr3]

No kidding I couldn't even touch that price.

Anyone putting in that much electric strip heat either doesn't have a decent service department, or they don't really think that geothermal heat really works.

[JCT]

15 kw would be max elec heat I would put in, for sure you want one with a ecm motor and 2 stage compressor especialy in the midwest where you need the 4 ton for heat but don't need even close to that in cooling also make sure they line the at least the first 10 to 12 ft of duct,

[bfsman]

to get the benifits want you need to compare apples to apples.the ducts are so important will they be pressure tested.its important.then what about service after thats important.my company has great service. we lose some jobs to cheaper bids we concentrate on overall system eff.the earth coupling the load calcs the ducts thats what your comparing not equipment or model and serial numbers.does the company care enough to employ nate certified techs and installers do they have the proper tools to test your ducts will you be getting what you think your paying for or just making some wanna be rich.the company you choose will be the most important thing not the equipment good luck when geo is done right its a beautiful thing

[jabeu]

george 2, i gatta know have you ever put that much strip heat in and if so how do you get a 3 or 4 ton unt to move enough air.
that is crazy strip heat

[Tex76]

I would request heat loss/gain calcs from both contractors. Compare unit outputs to loss/gain calcs of house load. This is to determine whether you need a 3 ton or 4 ton unit. You just want to make sure the unit is sized properly for your house to be happy in the long run even though it may cost more! Once you know what size then check each contractor's work for quality installation. Look at other jobs! Or get referrals.

"The bitterness of poor installation lingers long after the sweetness of a cheap price"

[mstrblstr3]

I would request heat loss/gain calcs from both contractors. Compare unit outputs to loss/gain calcs of house load. This is to determine whether you need a 3 ton or 4 ton unit. You just want to make sure the unit is sized properly for your house to be happy in the long run even though it may cost more! Once you know what size then check each contractor's work for quality installation. Look at other jobs! Or get referrals.

"The bitterness of poor installation lingers long after the sweetness of a cheap price"

Just finished a changeout that took over a week, due to the side-jobhack who told the homeowner he had been to school and presently worked for a hvac contractor. FYI duct tape doesn't hold flex to metal pipes or boots for very long. And a 12X8 duct shouldn't feed .......oh never mind.
Never the less the homeowner is tickled pink with the air flow and quietness of their new 6 ton Envision. Their top of the line equiptment is now matched by good air flow and heat transfer.

[mstrblstr3]

to get the benifits want you need to compare apples to apples.the ducts are so important will they be pressure tested.its important.then what about service after thats important.my company has great service. we lose some jobs to cheaper bids we concentrate on overall system eff.the earth coupling the load calcs the ducts thats what your comparing not equipment or model and serial numbers.does the company care enough to employ nate certified techs and installers do they have the proper tools to test your ducts will you be getting what you think your paying for or just making some wanna be rich.the company you choose will be the most important thing not the equipment good luck when geo is done right its a beautiful thing

I've installed a top notch ground loop system and had attached it to Bard Equiptment and the only thing the customer had to say was that it sounded like a freight train was in the basement. Also they were extremely unhappy with the supposed energy savings that was supposed to pay them back.

Soooooo. good WaterFurnace equiptment is the only way to go.