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  1. #1

    Apples to Apples?

    Hello everyone...

    My wife and I are building a home this Spring. I have gotten quotes from several different HVAC installers. My question is, are we comparing apples to apples in these two units. Both of these quotes are without backhoe work...

    The first one is a 1 Carrier 50YDV038_CB351 3 ton upflow 2 stage Water source heat pump with hot water return. 1 15kw heater. 1 flow control 1 pump, 1 hose kit and fittings, 1 sound pad, 1 programmable thermostat, lot supply and ductwork, lost supply and return air grilles and registers, plenums, 3 ton geo loop piping, misc material.

    cost - $$$$$

    Second one is a Climate Master TTV049AGC01ARKS Tran 27, 2 stage goe unit with media air filter, hot water gen, ecm blower motor, thermostat, 15kw heat strip, brass two pump flow controller, plastic hard pad, ground loop, ductwork, registers and grills.

    cost - $$$$$$
    This is all that was written on the quotes I recieved.

    This will be for a 2000-2100 sq ft home in the midwest. I have plenty of land to do a horizontal loop.

    $$$$$ dollars is quite a big difference so you can see my concern.
    Last edited by Chris_Worthington; 03-15-2011 at 10:46 AM. Reason: Pricing in Post

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    21,130
    I am not a GEO guy... so I am speaking from the outside:

    Might want to look at the specs of each unit... to see if they are apples to apples... also there are more items in the second quote.

    Carrier, while they are a HUGE manufacturer of residential HVAC equipment, is not primarily a GEO co... and I suspect their units may be built by someone else. Might want to check that also... However, here is what is important:

    Installation.

    Unlike most products where one compares similar to a commodity... the installation of the equipment is the most important part of a heating and air conditioning system. If it were me, I would look for references of the contractors... and talk to folks that have done business with the specific contractors you talk to. Did the work go well, did they do as they said they would, did the system work as it was sold to, how much service was needed to keep the system working, if there was any warranty work, was it done thoroughly and paid for by the co... or was there a deductible, etc, etc, etc... The point is to see how it works out long term... rather than look at the $$$ up front. If up front cost is the issue... then GEO is an extravagant route IMO.

    BTW: Forum rules prohibit pricing in a post... might want to edit and remove the pricing.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  3. #3
    Sorry about the pricing in the post. I'm not sure how to edit my post so if someone could please take out the pricing, i'd appreciate it.

    Upfront cost really isn't a factor as we ARE going to put Geo in our house, we'd be stupid not to, but the price difference IS a factor if we're comparing apples to apples.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    21,130
    Quote Originally Posted by hearter View Post
    Sorry about the pricing in the post. I'm not sure how to edit my post so if someone could please take out the pricing, i'd appreciate it.

    Upfront cost really isn't a factor as we ARE going to put Geo in our house, we'd be stupid not to, but the price difference IS a factor if we're comparing apples to apples.
    The forum moderators will be along soon to edit out the pricing... They are good about that.

    IMO: Ask a lot of questions, chat with customers of the contractor(s) you are interested in, do your online research of the products... Just remember that installation is the key to a system that lasts its life and does not require much service beyond what is normal.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  5. #5
    I spoke with the contractor that had the higher quote. He said that quote was for a 4 ton 2 stage unit. The other is a 3 ton 2 stage unit. I think I have my answer.

    Thanks all

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    The Quad-Cities area (midwest).
    Posts
    2,692
    Quote Originally Posted by hearter View Post
    I spoke with the contractor that had the higher quote. He said that quote was for a 4 ton 2 stage unit. The other is a 3 ton 2 stage unit. I think I have my answer.

    Thanks all
    You'll love the Geothermal system. ClimateMaster makes the Carrier. I was going to say that one is a 3 ton and one is a 4 ton.

    A Manual J needs to be performed before you move forward with the wrong size.

    The 4 ton cost more because of the unit and pump but also because of the extra ground loop. Plus, it takes more ductwork (if done properly.

    I would probably recommend a 30-40 kw package for back-up. The extra cost is nothing really.

    I can't believe you're getting all of that for the money. I sell them for that on a retrofit.

  7. #7

    Cool What you need is something in the middle

    Water Furnace has a three and half ton unit that would be perfect for the size home you described.
    While oversizing sounds like extra insurance, your efficiencies will suffer.
    The two stage option will help with this but the extra cost of loop field and equiptment is hard to make up.
    If you want highest efficient unit available, Water Furnace now has a variable speed compressor matched with variable loop pumps that boasts the highest SEERS on the planet. While the release date isn't till the fourth quarter, it would well be worth the wait. Find yourself a Geopro dealer off their website and step into the future.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    374
    Quote Originally Posted by George2 View Post
    You'll love the Geothermal system. ClimateMaster makes the Carrier. I was going to say that one is a 3 ton and one is a 4 ton.

    A Manual J needs to be performed before you move forward with the wrong size.

    The 4 ton cost more because of the unit and pump but also because of the extra ground loop. Plus, it takes more ductwork (if done properly.

    I would probably recommend a 30-40 kw package for back-up. The extra cost is nothing really.

    I can't believe you're getting all of that for the money. I sell them for that on a retrofit.
    No kidding I couldn't even touch that price.

  9. #9

    kw to the extreme

    Quote Originally Posted by can2man View Post
    No kidding I couldn't even touch that price.
    Anyone putting in that much electric strip heat either doesn't have a decent service department, or they don't really think that geothermal heat really works.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    SOUTH DAKOTA
    Posts
    94
    15 kw would be max elec heat I would put in, for sure you want one with a ecm motor and 2 stage compressor especialy in the midwest where you need the 4 ton for heat but don't need even close to that in cooling also make sure they line the at least the first 10 to 12 ft of duct,

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    60
    to get the benifits want you need to compare apples to apples.the ducts are so important will they be pressure tested.its important.then what about service after thats important.my company has great service. we lose some jobs to cheaper bids we concentrate on overall system eff.the earth coupling the load calcs the ducts thats what your comparing not equipment or model and serial numbers.does the company care enough to employ nate certified techs and installers do they have the proper tools to test your ducts will you be getting what you think your paying for or just making some wanna be rich.the company you choose will be the most important thing not the equipment good luck when geo is done right its a beautiful thing

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Central, PA
    Posts
    105
    george 2, i gatta know have you ever put that much strip heat in and if so how do you get a 3 or 4 ton unt to move enough air.
    that is crazy strip heat

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    20
    I would request heat loss/gain calcs from both contractors. Compare unit outputs to loss/gain calcs of house load. This is to determine whether you need a 3 ton or 4 ton unit. You just want to make sure the unit is sized properly for your house to be happy in the long run even though it may cost more! Once you know what size then check each contractor's work for quality installation. Look at other jobs! Or get referrals.

    "The bitterness of poor installation lingers long after the sweetness of a cheap price"

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