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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    15

    ClimateMaster Tranquility 27

    I have a new home built in 2009.

    This is our second winter with the Geo unit. Temperature last two days was -10 to -20.

    Is it normal for AUX HEAT to run frequently in those temps ?

    I live in Caledon, Ontario, Canada.

    My home is 4800 sq ft and I have a 6 ton for basement/main floor and 3 ton for upper floor. 4800 is excluding the basement. its unfinished. I have rigid board on the block calls with R-5 rating. Didnt finish putting up walls yet with R-14 bats.

    When the temp outside was -20 the system couldnt bring the temp up. It stayed at 21 , it wouldnt budge. I set my anticipator high to try to keep AUX HEAT off. It would go into HEAT 2 and continously run at that stage and never be able to bring the temp up.

    Today I decided to let AUX HEAT run because my wife was freaking

    I have the problem where I need to put in 2 small plug in heaters for my kids rooms 1.5Kw heaters. One in each room because they get cold upstairs in their rooms.

    The ducting for 3ton unit runs within the attic. I havent checked if the ducting is insulated.

    I noticed we use around 4700Kw of electricity in winter months. Does this sound normal? We dont have anything abnormal running except usual appliances besides that, and the two plug in heaters for my kids room. If the geo would work properly then I could get rid of those.

    Our upstairs unit uses a York AHX36 air handler connected to the climatemaster system. Do you think 1200CFM is sufficient for our upper floor?

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    thanks!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    TN
    Posts
    93
    I live in TN we have installed several geo HPs of course our climate is significantly warmer than yours the coldest temps we see normally are in the teens F i think you were using the C scale. aux heat needing to come on would have several different factors tightness of home outdoor temp loop temp and sizing unit sizing HPs are working correctly etc but i would think at the outdoor temps you are dealing with aux heat wouldnt be out of the question

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    The Quad-Cities area (midwest).
    Posts
    2,652
    We try to size the geothermal unit to take care of (approx.) 90% of the load. When it gets really cold, then the aux. heat kicks in.

    If the geo units are undersized, then the elec. back up will heat the house more than it should.

    It's a common complaint when the systems aren't designed correctly. It could be a number of issues from the ductwork to the insulation to the sizing to the loop field......you name it.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    TEXAS
    Posts
    806
    Your installing contractor should be able to provide you with a manual J heat loss calculation that they used to size the job. They should have then designed the loops for a min/max loop entering water temp. Using the min/max loop temperature and equipment capacity at that temperature, they can then provide you estimated data on how much your unit should run at the design temps.
    Avatar is a tribute to my Great Grandfather, Andrew Stewart. This pin was one of his advertisements for his heating and plumbing business. I never knew him but must of inherited his love of things mechanical since I am the only blue collar worker in the family

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    15
    Thanks for replies.

    Problem is builder never gave me that heat calculation paperwork.

    I was looking at our electrical usage for 2010 and its around $470/mth in total. This isnt only for heating but everything all together.

    Its hard to tell what portion would be heating.

    But I assume alot is heating since in summer our bills are lower than winter months.

    I had an energy audit done on our home and the rating was around 85-90. Not sure if thats decent or not.

    How can I disconnect the AUX HEAT so it doesnt turn on at all ? I want to see if our energy usage drops dramatically because im not sure if it kicks in at night when it gets colder and we are sleeping.

    I mean I can feel heat out of the register when its in HEAT mode.

    Also what would be a good value to set ANTICIPATOR at?

    thanks

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    southern california
    Posts
    535
    I would first start by addressing the building envelope. For your climate zone , R - values should be extremely higher than mentioned. All aspects of proper design in negative climate zones is a must. More info would be needed to evaluate your situation.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    15
    Hello. Sorry, are you asking what the R Values are in my walls? If so they are R-14. My walls are 2x4.

    I beleive this is code in Ontario.

    Attic is R-40.

    Basement is unfinished but has R5 on the outside of my foundation and i just finished putting another R5 on the inside.

    also i dont understand addressing my building envelope?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    southern california
    Posts
    535
    The equipment selection is based upon many factors. The number 1 is heat loss from the structure . Walls, ceilings, windows and doors. The greater the temperature from outside to the inside , the greater the energy loss will occur. R values are extremely important. Your ceiling rating of R-40 is probably close, the wall R value of 14 is poor. Windows and doors are really going to play into the equation. If the envelope is porous energy is going to escape. It is like you are trying to heat the outdoors, which will give you high energy bills. There may be problems with your equipment or total design , but the envelope is a good place to start.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    15
    I had an energy audit done on my home, blower test.

    I understand what your saying. Of course there are several factors. My previous home was built the same way and the cost was much less.

    My previous home was 3700 sq ft. My new home is 4700 sq ft.

    My previous home ran on natural gas. My new home is Geo.

    Im basing my views from my previous homes.

    The last two months my kW usage were around 4500-4800Kw.

    Im not sure what portion of that is for heating and what portion is for regular usage.

    Whats the "average" cost to heat a home around my size ?

    Im not saying my home is tight or loose. But I can be certain is far from loose, so thats why I mentioned average.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Russell ON Canada
    Posts
    24
    I also live in the Ontario outside of Ottawa. We have a 20 month old 6 ton T27 as well, slightly oversized because while it is open loop now I ould like to go closed loop in a couple of years.

    My house is a 2400 sq ft bungalow and 87% efficient which, I am told, is at the high end. The walls are R21 2x6 which is code, not 2x4.

    Your electrical usage is a bit high but your house is very large and it does not seem to far out to me. I use almost $300/mo. It may be you have hit the llimit of what your Geo system can perform at. Note that -20C is pretty cold so get those kids bedrooms/ducts checked out and let the AUX run.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    15
    Oh i was wrong on wallsa then i thought it was 2x4

    Ill need to aswk the inspector that did my house

    Is your 300 monthly averaged out for the entire year or only cold seasons?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    southern california
    Posts
    535
    The Blower test will determine infiltration losses from doors, windows, etc. but the R- value is the key to heat loss thru transmission. What is the kw/hr rate , you may very well have reached the maximum output on your geo. I would find a qualified contractor to get a second opinion, or hire an engineer to evaluate your home. I believe you are going to find your walls are a large part of the problem.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Russell ON Canada
    Posts
    24
    The $300/mo is for the entire year. My static cost without Geo is about $200-$210/mo. We are on the time of day billing now and we may actually save a bit as the lion's share of the htg is at night when rates are lower. We don't run the AC a lot in the summer as we like it warm, use ceiling fans and our rural location cools off quickly at night. My Nov bill was $308 and my Dec bill was $378. Jan will probably be about $475. I think I am heating for about $900 or so per year. This compares to about $4000 for electricity now or about $3000-$3500 for oil or propane. My old heat pump broke down 2 Jans ago and electricity was over $1000 for the month.

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