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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    1,209


    Some lawyers make $250 and hour - that is not a typical rate. The rate for doctors vary. The rate for auto repair shops vary - $95 is not typical. Compensation is generally controlled by supply and demand. Education also factors into the equation. In order to be a doctor or lawyer, you need a higher level of education - typically 3 years of law school beyond college and 4 years of medical school plus interning and residency.

    If you are trying to equate the compensation for HVAC mechanics to doctors and lawyers then you are ignoring supply and demand economics. Typically, you will be paid based on how much money you make your company (supply and demand again).HVAC mechanics are not is as much demand as doctors. Lawyers are another issue - the country may have too many lawyers and the typical salary is not what you think.

    [/B][/QUOTE]

    I believe you have no idea what your talking about. When training a tech in the HVAC field we must put them through an approved apprenticeship school (4 years) and we are not union. To add to this most technicians have an associates degree in hvac before they enter apprenticeship. The training is endless as it should be. Not only do we hold journey license in hvac we also hold plumbing,boiler, electrical, welding and other trade licenses in order to do the work legally and proffessionally. You see, in order to get these journeyman licenses we must pass very difficult testing. Try getting just a boiler license.
    It is interesting to see post by people such as you that have no idea what is required to do this work properly, and how intensive and expensive the training is. You are right we are not doctors or lawyers and our pay reflects that we do however, hold peoples lives and property in our capable hands.
    HVAC techs with the right training and experience are in very high demand and are paid by their knowledge not how much they make for the company. Journeyman in Oregon are in short supply and command a high wage. I'm done
    Proud supporter of Springfield Millers and Oregon Ducks.

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    11,376
    Originally posted by chillbilly
    Sorry about the long winded response...hope this helps.



    [Edited by chillbilly on 04-07-2005 at 09:03 AM]
    Billy,

    It was a well-thought, articulate response.

    A distinction needs to be made between educating the customer as to what they need to know vs. walking them step-by-step through a repair, sight unseen. I have no problem with the educational aspect.
    • Electricity makes refrigeration happen.
    • Refrigeration makes the HVAC psychrometric process happen.
    • HVAC pyschrometrics is what makes indoor human comfort happen...IF the ducts AND the building envelope cooperate.


    A building is NOT beautiful unless it is also comfortable.

  3. #29
    I agree hound.
    I'm not advocating HVAC 101, but I will give them honest answers and tips that will help them without being evasive.
    Many DIY's already think they know everything about what we do anyway or that they can learn and apply instantaneously what WE know takes time and work.
    I'll repeat it again for any DIY...Do not attempt these tasks. They are to be left for capable professionals...and yes... many of us are capable and professional.

    [Edited by chillbilly on 04-07-2005 at 10:54 AM]

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    29

    Professionals

    Let me rephrase, I didn't know there was a "DIY's KEEP OUT" sign.
    From what I've read here there are different definitions for what a DIY'r is. Is someone who changes their own filters, crawls up in the attic and seals tyeir own duct, register, and air handler leaks (from poor installs), cleans their own evaporarator coil and fan blades every few years, and has enough technical knowledge to diagnose faulty capacitors and contacts a DIY'r? I don't own a set of gauges so I'm stopped at the above. Personally, I consider a DIY'r someone who buy's a system off ebay and installs it themselves, totally bypassing the HVAC service community.
    CT2, I know exactly what's involved in an install. I just shelled out well over $20K for 8 1/2 tons of top of the line, new construction, Trane systems. I watched as they took the engineered ducting plans and threw them out the window because the framing in both the attic and between the first floor and second floor forced them to redesign the entire system in the field. I watched them when I called them back out "two" times to seal up all the registers, the flex to duct joints, and numerous flex duct rips where they pulled the flex thru holes cut in the second floor I beams.
    Andserco- I'm a Geologist. Spent many early years working in the oil fields fixing stuff. Worked with an electrician most of that time.
    As for quality of HVAC techs on this site, I'm not slamming any of you for shoddy business practices. I consider this site breath of fresh air. If you guys are so in to your line of business that your on this site, you must really like your work. The problem is I think your a minority in your trade. I think more than a majority of the techs out there are substandard on both the technical level and the moral level. I also think that as people become more educated on some of the basic repairs of air conditioning, more of these low life techs will go out of business.

  5. #31
    I also think that as people become more educated on some of the basic repairs of air conditioning, more of these low life techs will go out of business.




    From this portion of your post I am assuming that you are advocating basic repairs performed by the DIY.
    Not a good idea.

    I wouldn't want basic advice from a geologist so that I could apply that advice by drilling for oil in my backyard

    We can give advice and information to gain trust and reassure DIY's of our plan and commitment to help them but that cannot and should not be construed as advice to help you perform ANY tasks...basic as you think they may be.

    We are involved in applying the science of refrigeration and heating and the scientific principles therein.
    It may not be "rocket science" but it is a science nevertheless.
    The properties of heat and matter may be basic, but they can surely get you hurt or killed if you attempt tasks and procedures incorrectly.
    We live in a refrigerated world and I for one rank the importance of what we do right up there with any profession.




  6. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    11,376
    We live in a refrigerated world and I for one rank the importance of what we do right up there with any profession.
    Truth is, our modern way of life would be impossible without refrigeration.

    An obvious case would be how populated would the desert southwest cities of Phoenix and Tucson be without a/c? Oh, you'd have some hardshell locals doing fine with swamp coolers, but the tall skyscrapers you see in downtown Phoenix? Wouldn't be there.

    Modern grocery store...couldn't exist without refrigeration.

    Many manufacturing processes...impossible without refrigeration and precise air filtration.

    Eating ice cream on a long flight overseas? Unlikely. Even the aircraft itself needs air conditioning.

    If you enjoy the way you live in this day and age, give a nod of thanks to the man with the gauges and sharp skill to go with it.
    • Electricity makes refrigeration happen.
    • Refrigeration makes the HVAC psychrometric process happen.
    • HVAC pyschrometrics is what makes indoor human comfort happen...IF the ducts AND the building envelope cooperate.


    A building is NOT beautiful unless it is also comfortable.

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    29

    Disagree

    I disagree with you chillbilly. I've put the word out amongst friends and neighbors on two companies where I live. Both companies are what I call compressor sellers. One tried to ram one down my throat last Aug. on a 95 degree Friday afternoon when all it was was the run Cap. The only reason they were called was because I couldn't get home to look at it, the wife was complaining, and the supply houses would be closed until Monday. When I showed up at 6pm the tech already had a new outside unit sent out from the shop and put me on the phone with the boss who went into his easy finacing sales pitch for the new unit. I walked over to the old unit and asked why the run cap. top was buldged out asked him to replace it and it's run great ever since. The other company got a good friend who had a service agreement with the original installing company. The wifes were talking on the phone one day when the it was mentioned that their 5 year old compressor went out (that was out of warranty). I got there too late because they were just finishing up the new install. The old unit was sitting there and sure enough contacts were very carboned and wouldn't test on an ohm meter. Was the compressor bad? Maybe. Should they have cleaned the contacts to make sure? I think so. That was two years ago.

    Maybe techs treat homeowners in different neighboorhoods differently. The expensive home owners get the shaft. Hopefully he little old ladies living on a pension in an old home are treated differently.

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    657
    Baffin sounds like you have been dealing with one of the Heat and AC companies around here. This reminds me of company in Salina Ks that sells lenox that came to work on my exgirlfriends unit a few years before I got into HVAC. She had a some service agreement that stated they would come once in fall and spring to check her unit out and change the filter. All was well for the first year then the second year their technician came out and told her that her fan motor was locked up and the condensing unit was sitting on the ground and would corode the lines and cause the unit to leak. He told her that she would be better off to replace the whole system. She said ok and was having them come over to price a new system. Then I happened to come over and look at it. The locked up motor was the conduit with the motor wires had come loose and was catching on the fan blade. One wire tie took care of that problem. The condensing unit was on a pad but had sunk down over the years where it looked like it was on the ground. But that doesn't make them leak. I called them and asked them just what they were trying to pull. They quickly backed off their original recomendations. Granted it was an older unit but do you have to lie to sell them a new unit. They were trying to take advantage of a woman. I don't know why they don't want to fix them other than they are greedy and want to screw the customer. Seems like there are a lot of those out there. Now I wasn't a DYI but I am a electronics technican by trade. If most companies were honest you wouldn't have to check up on them.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    253
    Originally posted by millerman


    Some lawyers make $250 and hour - that is not a typical rate. The rate for doctors vary. The rate for auto repair shops vary - $95 is not typical. Compensation is generally controlled by supply and demand. Education also factors into the equation. In order to be a doctor or lawyer, you need a higher level of education - typically 3 years of law school beyond college and 4 years of medical school plus interning and residency.

    If you are trying to equate the compensation for HVAC mechanics to doctors and lawyers then you are ignoring supply and demand economics. Typically, you will be paid based on how much money you make your company (supply and demand again).HVAC mechanics are not is as much demand as doctors. Lawyers are another issue - the country may have too many lawyers and the typical salary is not what you think.

    I believe you have no idea what your talking about. When training a tech in the HVAC field we must put them through an approved apprenticeship school (4 years) and we are not union. To add to this most technicians have an associates degree in hvac before they enter apprenticeship. The training is endless as it should be. Not only do we hold journey license in hvac we also hold plumbing,boiler, electrical, welding and other trade licenses in order to do the work legally and proffessionally. You see, in order to get these journeyman licenses we must pass very difficult testing. Try getting just a boiler license.
    It is interesting to see post by people such as you that have no idea what is required to do this work properly, and how intensive and expensive the training is. You are right we are not doctors or lawyers and our pay reflects that we do however, hold peoples lives and property in our capable hands.
    HVAC techs with the right training and experience are in very high demand and are paid by their knowledge not how much they make for the company. Journeyman in Oregon are in short supply and command a high wage. I'm done [/B][/QUOTE]

    I know exactly what I am talking about. Contrary to your statement, you are paid according to the amount of revenue you generate. Reread my post and comment point by point if you disagree with something I have said. I never said there wasnt training involved but dont even begin to try to equate law school or medical school with a trade school. If you do so then you have no idea what you are talking about. The original poster was lamenting about what doctors and lawyers are paid. There is a very good reason they are paid more than HVAC techs - their services are in more demand and the training involved is more difficult. By the way, I am not a medical doctor or a lawyer but I do have 12 years of higher education and I am paid accordingly and that pay reflects the revenue my work generates.

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    1,209
    Tuccillo,
    I do disagree with your statement regarding pay and how much money you make for the company. I am not going to argue with you.
    Its funny, it alway's seems to come down to this arguing thing on this site. What you believe (not being in the trade) and what I believe (in the trade 20+ years) can be argued for ever. You would think I would learn my lesson and just read your post's and laugh then shake my head. It is hard to ignore sometimes, particullarly when people come here to complain about how so and so ripped me off and were all alike. I shall try.

    Out.
    Proud supporter of Springfield Millers and Oregon Ducks.

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    253
    Originally posted by millerman
    Tuccillo,
    I do disagree with your statement regarding pay and how much money you make for the company. I am not going to argue with you.
    Its funny, it alway's seems to come down to this arguing thing on this site. What you believe (not being in the trade) and what I believe (in the trade 20+ years) can be argued for ever. You would think I would learn my lesson and just read your post's and laugh then shake my head. It is hard to ignore sometimes, particullarly when people come here to complain about how so and so ripped me off and were all alike. I shall try.

    Out.
    If your pay does not reflect your economic contribution to your company's bottom line then you work in truely unique environment because salaries in virtually every other business in the world do. Unless you own your own company you probably dont know what you are talking about. If you own your own company and you dont pay people by their economic contribution then you either have a high turnover rate or I am surprised you are still in business.

    For the record, I did not come here to complain about being ripped off by an HVAC company. On the contrary, the HVAC folks I have dealt with over the past 25 years have been good. Then again, I am pretty good at identifying hacks and not doing business with them. I simply posted that you cannot compare lawyers and doctors with HVAC techs anymore than you can compare a CEO of a major corporation with a doctor or lawyer - the pay scales are different because the their ability to generate revenue is different and the forces of supply and demand are in play.

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    1,209
    Okay, I will try again.
    Technicians obviuosly cannot be hired knowing what their contribution is going to be. We must know their abilities. Being a training agent for an apprenticeship program we must hire from a pool of applicants, their wage depends on their schooling level (period 1-8). As their levels increase so does their wage. You can pay them more but not less. Journeymen have a set minimum wage and can be hired for more but not less. During the hiring process they will ask for a desired wage and we may or may not accept that wage. Obviously a person that goes above and beyond recieves merit increases like any other business. What you describe is incentive or commission based pay and customers usually get screwed by these types of companies.
    I am the General Manager here, we have been in business for 58 years with a very small turnover. I have drivers and tech's in the 30 year range with the newest tech hire at 5 years (parts runners come and go). I was not trying to compare difficulty in schooling to doctors and lawyers that would be ludicrous as our techs typically work full time while going to school. They don't have the luxury of a college and fraturnity atmosphere (burp). Just kidding yuk yuk. In all seriousness, we are proffessionals that are highly trained and should never be compared to any other proffession, their is no comparison and using a comparison of doctors and lawyers is not fair to either proffessions.
    I hope i've made my case clear.
    Now how about some lawyer jokes
    Proud supporter of Springfield Millers and Oregon Ducks.

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    99% of the lawyers out there make the rest of them look bad.

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