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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    29
    I just have to blow some steam off. Some of you professional HVAC'er really have it out for the Do It Your Selfers. Almost every day some DIY get's butchered for asking a HVAC question (see Stramell's thread below). Let me tell you this. We DIY's have been DRIVEN to this site and other HVAC sites for information because we've been getting screwed over by the HVAC "professionals". Personally, I own a total of 5 split systems in three separate houses spread over 230 miles. I don't have the time to work on all the things that break in these houses. Plumbing, electric, handyman things are fixed easily by professionals. But when time after time HVAC "professionals" are telling me "you need a new compressor", "your 2 pounds of freon low but it's such a small leak we'll never find it", "you need a totally new system" I'm going to check it and fix it myself if possible (it's usually just a cap. or dirty contacts). Some of you guys need to spend less time worrying about the DIY's and more time worrying about how to weed out all the incompetent/crook tech's. It's not the few DIY's that are eating into your business. It's the "used car salesman" reputation some HVAC tech "professionals" are giving your service industry that make people scared to look in the yellow pages for HVAC service. Now I feel better.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Zelienople, Pa
    Posts
    2,965
    If you help us weed out the hacks also we would appreciate that!
    When looking for a contractor ask for:
    references
    licences
    insurance
    bonding
    BBB standings
    training qualifications
    ect...

    If you do your homework on a contractor before hiring him/her, you will get a better end result and the "hack" will be forced out of business.
    How tall are you Private???!!!!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    1,209
    I'm glad you feel better. You describe the biggest problem we "proffessionals" face almost daily. Hiring competent people is a difficult task as with any business. We spend thousands of dollars every year in training, and numerous other issues that drive our cost's and yours up. People look for cheap and end up getting it. Do what you can to fix things yourself nobody here cares, just dont ask for step by step instructions thats what bothers most on this site. Ask your friends and or neighbors who they use. When looking at the yellow pages, look for factory trained, factory authorized, 24/7 emergency service and how many years in business. Size of the company means nothing.
    Remember, people make mistakes, give them a chance to make things right. If they can't or wont, then look for someone else. Good luck and happy hunting.
    Proud supporter of Springfield Millers and Oregon Ducks.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    3,157
    When you called us BIGHEAD I thought you were making an offer

    I am glad you feel better> When you have time to actually think maybee you can tell us how any professional in this busniess stands to gain a thing by screwing our customers over.

    The public is our customers and they are the people that we try and do a good job for. If you think you are going to find anyone here that treats their customers the way you describe , you are wrong!

    Yep there are hacks that call themselves pros, but the ones that you call that come out and do a thorough job are usually the ones that are more expensive and the first thing they are accused of is screwing the public.
    Before you posted here I would bet you got conformation from another DIY er that you were getting screwed .

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    165

    When I go to a job I get paid for what I know, not what I do. I didnt sit in class all that time for nothing. When I started out I got little pay while I was learning. I was LEARNING. Now I get paid for my knowledge. If I give away everything I know that I had to pay for with my time and hard work then I have acomplished nothing. I have nothing against DIY'ers but I just dont tell everybody how to fix their equipment for free. Thats how I earn my living. I WILL agree that there are hacks out there. I hope everyone of em gets turned in. Wrong is wrong. The hacks give us all a bad reputation. I think you have just encountered a few hacks and that you should ask around to find the "good" contractors out there.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    11,808
    Originally posted by baffin789
    I just have to blow some steam off. Some of you professional HVAC'er really have it out for the Do It Your Selfers. Almost every day some DIY get's butchered for asking a HVAC question (see Stramell's thread below). Let me tell you this. We DIY's have been DRIVEN to this site and other HVAC sites for information because we've been getting screwed over by the HVAC "professionals". Personally, I own a total of 5 split systems in three separate houses spread over 230 miles. I don't have the time to work on all the things that break in these houses. Plumbing, electric, handyman things are fixed easily by professionals. But when time after time HVAC "professionals" are telling me "you need a new compressor", "your 2 pounds of freon low but it's such a small leak we'll never find it", "you need a totally new system" I'm going to check it and fix it myself if possible (it's usually just a cap. or dirty contacts). Some of you guys need to spend less time worrying about the DIY's and more time worrying about how to weed out all the incompetent/crook tech's. It's not the few DIY's that are eating into your business. It's the "used car salesman" reputation some HVAC tech "professionals" are giving your service industry that make people scared to look in the yellow pages for HVAC service. Now I feel better.
    Originally this site did cater to DIYers but if you think about it, guys in here doing HVAC for a living are really cutting their own throats by giving DIY guys advice.

    The site changed as not to cater to DIY, because it caused grief to the people who do this for a living.

    So, some may help you and some may slam you if you look for advice here but this is no longer a DIY site.

    There are good and bad in each field and when you shop the lowest price you get the bottom feeders. You get what you pay for.

    The way we build has a greater impact on our comfort, energy consumption and IAQ than any HVAC system we install.

    http://www.ductstrap.com/

  7. #7
    Well Now You have opened a can of worms-Its like when the mechanic tells you that your oil needs changed on your car because it has 7200 miles on it and you say will it still run without changing the oil-The answer is yes.

    Is the mechanic a crook-No

    But people think we are-

    We know our business and you know yours enough said.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    11,296
    I just have to blow some steam off.
    You do know what happens when you do this, right? You release a tremendous amount of heat, but I have yet to see any steam generate light.




    But when time after time HVAC "professionals" are telling me "you need a new compressor",
    Well, did you? You didn't say what the problem actually was, so how are we to know the technician was not right?

    your 2 pounds of freon low but it's such a small leak we'll never find it
    And sometimes that is true. It could be a small leaker in a crusty old evap coil that the tech knows full well if he goes in to attempt a fix, he'll end up hating life with you and that system, as you'll scream at him for what he charged you to fix that leak, and when another leak springs up in the same coil, you'll holler at him for trying to fix a coil that continues to spring leaks.
    So he either a) minimizes the significance of the leak, or b) tries to sell you a new coil to solve the problem, or c) attempt to sell you a new system because the rest of it is just as crusty and ragged as the coil.

    I'm going to check it and fix it myself if possible (it's usually just a cap. or dirty contacts
    Any idea why the cap went bad? Could be system is overcharged or dirty coils or insufficient power supply or other reason is putting a strain on the compressor and capacitor, causing the cap to die. Dirty contactors are something that should be caught on a preventive maintenance program. Do you have one of those for your various properties? I thought so.

    I will grant you that there are many unqualified or apathetic warm bodies driving vans around attempting to offer a facade of HVAC service. I spend plenty of time in my own building cleaning up their hackery, so even commercial HVAC isn't exempt from this problem. However, as with just about everything a consumer deals with these days, you gotta do some groundwork before finding someone who appears to have his ducks in a row to give you a good result. It's a shame that it has come to this, but we live in a nation that complains about a mammoth merchant like Wal Mart but continues to shop there because the prices can't be beat.

    Now I feel better.
    I usually do as well after I pass gas. (sorry, couldn't resist)



    • Electricity makes refrigeration happen.
    • Refrigeration makes the HVAC psychrometric process happen.
    • HVAC pyschrometrics is what makes indoor human comfort happen...IF the ducts AND the building envelope cooperate.


    A building is NOT beautiful unless it is also comfortable.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, United States
    Posts
    12,910
    I think some of us may be a little jaded. We a tired of being used and absused by "consumers" .

    The "realator" that wants us to give an estimate for a new system so they can use it to drive the price down on a property.

    The homeowner that we keep the furnace going for several years even though we told them it only makes sense to replace it. Only to find out that they bought a new one from someone else because we couldn't fix it "right".

    The DIYer that we sell a part across the counter to that stops payment on his check because the part they bought didn't solve the problem.

    The homeowner that's pissed that you charged them 427.38 on Saturday morning at 1:23 am and on Monday they found somebody that answered there phone and says you were over charge but they don't provide 24hr service.

    The homeowner that has a much cheaper bid and you tell them all the reasons it won't work right and they take your engineering back to the cheaper guy.

    DIYer that is so cheap he doesn't want to make any kind of investment in learning to do it right. Just "expects" that he is entitled to free information.

    DIYer that want to argue when you do tell them the proper way to do it.

    DIYer that want to cut corners by not doing the job right ie: I don't care if you get a permit, I don't want any inspectors in my house.

    Are some HVAC people less than professional of course, but we don't have the market cornered.

    Personally I don't mind DIYer's , I just don't like people that are cheap, sometimes it's hard to sort them out.


    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    29
    Where do I start? First, I didn't see the "DIY's KEEP OUT" sign.

    CT2 You stated "I am glad you feel better> When you have time to actually think maybee you can tell us how any professional in this business stands to gain a thing by screwing our customers over"

    It's called turning what SHOULD be a $100 job into a $800 job. You know what I mean. 99% of people don't know squat about air conditioning and are at the complete mercy of the tech. Some of you on this site sound like you'd like it to stay that way. My opinion is the greater number people that gain knowledge about HVAC the better it is for the HVAC profession because the incompetents and crooks will be exposed for what they are (unfortunately, that's all I've found). Sure, a small percentage may use that knowledge to fix some things but there would be much greater benefit to the pro's business.

    Shophoud, To make it quick, in every case more was attempted to be sold than to actually fix the problem. Never has a tech done even the basics of system charge measuring. They all have slapped the gauges on and told me I was under charged. No temp readings ever. The preventitive maintainance visits I've seen are a joke. They're just opportunities for the company to make a bigger sale.

    Maybe someone can give me a good reference for the following areas.
    Concan, TX 30 miles NE of Uvalde
    Riviera, TX on Baffin Bay 20 Miles S. of Kingsville
    Spring Branch, Tx 20 miles N. of San Antonio
    Thanks, Got to go for the Day.



  11. #11
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by baffin789
    [B]Where do I start? First, I didn't see the "DIY's KEEP OUT" sign.

    Do-It-Yourselfers - not here.

    This site is for industry professionals and folks seeking HVAC/R advice and knowledge. Please do not ask for step by step instructions on purchasing, installing or repairing your own HVAC equipment, that is our job and our livelihood. We are generous, but not to a fault.

    Questions of this type will not be answered and may be deleted.
    Rules are posted here: http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=1241

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    West TN
    Posts
    983
    Try being a technician with 14 years experience and
    making only $12.50 / hr. (if you don't mind, read my posts and see how much tech knowledge I have in comparison)
    No insurance.
    One week a year vacation (but your always too broke to take it so you opt to get a 40hr reg pay check instead)

    The hacks around here have caused the prices of our work to go so low, we cannot compete.

    (this is west TN by the way)

    By the way, I'm not aiming the negativity of this post toward you.... I'm aiming it toward hacks.


    What would you do if someone said...

    Yeah... I can put in a system for ya.
    What size did they say they were putting in?
    (before you answer)
    I bet they said about a 2 1/2 ton.
    (your thinking yeah thats right)
    Well shoot, I can put in a 3 1/2 ton for 500 dollars less than what they said they'd put in the 2 1/2 ton for.

    After the job is put in.
    You come here and find out the differences
    Oversize equipment don't work
    The cheaper guy did not seal the duct work like the first guy was going to do.
    THe first guy was going to give you a quality job.
    You expected to get the 'same' for less

    You go back and ask the cheaper guy about sealing the ductwork.
    He says he never heard of duct mastic.
    He crawls under the house and slaps on some duck tape.

    Most customers still think they got a deal.
    and recommend 'bubba' to everyone else and say we're ripoffs cuz we were going to sell you a unit for 500 dollars more... not only that.... but the unit was going to be one ton smaller.

    Not to mention...
    the second guy said...
    "Oh no... you wouldnt' want a heat pump. THey blow cold air. I can put you a gas unit in and have your house cookin in no time"

    Several months later you hear a humming noise through the ductwork. (duck tape dried up and is making a kazoo sound)
    The guy comes out and rips the duck tape off and calls it fixed. You ask what it was and he says the tape come loose and he mashed it back down.

    A few months later you get an odor in your house.
    You can't figure out what it is.
    You call the guy that put it in.
    He comes out and can't find anything.
    Out of frustration you call us.
    We diagnose the prob.
    Duct leaks in conjunction with oversized equipment causing humidity levels to go up in house causing growths in duct work and on evap coil.
    Coil will have to be pulled and cleaned
    Duct will have to be sealed

    You ask about cold spots in house (we would have made the house one temp if you woulda went with us the first time.
    Balancing comes with the job.. the cheap guy just went around to the vents and made sure air was coming out)

    You ask why its kinda chilly when the heat cuts off.
    We explain that the gas furnace is oversized and its overshooting the temp and short cycling.

    The list goes on and on and on.

    THen you get mad at us cuz we're going to charge so much to fix it. Cuz you think we're ripping you off.
    So you tell your neighbors that we were trying to rip you off.

    Then to cap it off..
    You come here wondering how to fix it yourself.

    To the site admin...
    Sorry if I'm breaking any rules on posting dollar signs about my hourly pay....
    I just couldnt' help myself.

    [Edited by wormy on 04-06-2005 at 06:59 PM]
    Extend to others the grace that God has given you.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Gold Coast of Connecticut
    Posts
    4,571
    I am so glad the company i work for is not in Texas....what a mess!

    Here in onnecticut we do not have that large of a problem with HVAC tachs screwing customers. We all make a good wage (at least twice of what i have seen in this post) and in 12 years I have never performed service that was not in the customers best interest!

    We charge $83.00 per hour pluss portal to portal travel so we do not have to do extra work to make the company money.
    Aire Serv of SW Connecticut- Gas heat, dual fuel and central a/c systems installed and serviced

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