Icing up due to overcharge?

[john dalton]

Dear Westcoast refer man,

Regarding your previous posted comments:

“A simple answer to this question hasn't cleared up the controversy. Also, a simple answer may not lead to any greater understanding of how things really work.’

The original question posted by Hsteiner on page one of this thread has already been answered I think to everyone’s satisfaction. What’s left of this thread, that’s being posted, is simply clarification of previous stated posts from one individual and another individual that is questioning it.

The detailed analysis of a typical air conditioning system operating with no other deficiencies or problems, other than an overcharge of refrigerant, has been debated extensively, including the use of either a capillary tube or TXV as a metering device. The overall consensus of everyone here is simply this statement:

“In other words, give me an example of a normal air conditioning operating system with no other operating deficiencies that would cause an ice up with overcharge as a sole source of the problem, and I would stand corrected.”

Reprinted as it appears on page six of this thread. I think everyone here who posted and/or who read this thread either learned something new, or at least had their basic refrigeration principles reinforced.

But, please comment on my above comments because I love a good debate of refrigeration principles or operation…………………………….

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[john dalton]

Dear Westcoast refer man,

My posted comment of:

“A simple question deserves a simple answer my friend……it can’t!”

was simply an answer to your previous posted question of:

“If so, how could a higher saturated temperature lead to freezing?”

Do you see now?

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[Poodle Head Mikey]

You:

"I think everyone here who posted and/or who read this thread either learned something new, or at least had their basic refrigeration principles reinforced."
=======
I do not think either point is true as applies to me. <g>

[john dalton]

Dear HVAC Wizard aka Poodle Head Mikey,

Regarding your previous re-post:

"I think everyone here who posted and/or who read this thread either learned something new, or at least had their basic refrigeration principles reinforced."

I do not think either point is true as applies to me. <g>’

Based upon my statement, I’m assuming your saying that you know about all the refrigeration operations, principles, and their applied sequence of operation, as stated throughout this thread, and that your HVAC knowledge is so strong, and deeply rooted, that this thread was a complete waste of time for you, you learned nothing new, and further more that all the above concepts are totally known to you. My friend, you just might be “The HVAC Wizard”.

So as to prove me wrong my wizard friend, answer me this question so I too can marvel at your abilities:

Which weights more, a pound of feathers, or a pound of gold? Be careful wizard, this question is not as easy as it first appears to be…………….

Patiently waiting to be amazed my wizard friend…………….

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[john dalton]

Dear HVAC Wizard aka Poodle Head Mikey,

Another question comes to mind my wizard friend:

How long have you been in the HVAC/R field may I ask?

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[john dalton]

Dear HVAC Wizard aka Poodle Head Mikey,

After checking your previous posts on other threads I can see you’ve been in the HVAC/R trade since the 1970s. Your posts are very concise, detailed, mostly to the point, and full of basic HVAC principles and operations. You appear to have a considerable amount of knowledge in the trade and are free to give it out.

I was a little stumbled in your post of August 2004 in which you explain that you just “recently” discovered that your old capacitor checker was lying to you, since you didn’t regularly use a digital capacity checker to check actual mfd or uf readings. But there again, you seem to learn something, this is a very good thing since I always say to the service technicians at my company that:

“The day you stop learning is the day you become a fool.”

I’m glad to see your not a fool, by the way, you’ve yet to answer mt question my wizard friend………………

Most Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[john dalton]

Dear HVAC Wizard aka Poodle Head Mikey,

Well its 6:47 PM here in Los Angeles and I have to go home to take my wife out to dinner, or should I say, I “get” to take my wife out to dinner. I’ll check this thread tomorrow morning when I get back into the office at 6:00 AM for your answer my wizard friend.

I really learn a lot when I get to discuss, or debate HVAC subjects with fellow service technicians who obviously posies great amounts of HVAC/R knowledge and wisdom. I truly look forward to our future conversations in this thread or forum.

Good night my friend.

Most Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[Poodle Head Mikey]

John,

Wizard? Far from it. At least in opinion. I can only wish that it were even half true. What so often frustrates me is that, scary as this is to me, I am usually the smartest guy I know. And I say that with the greatest sadness.

Knowing myself as I do: I am hardly a wizard; barely competent would be closer to the Truth, it just terrifies me that it is apparently this way. I almost always learn at least something every day. But Life is so damned short and the need to know so nearly infnite. I just wish there were some shortcut.

What I would like more than almost anything is to know at least one guy who Really knows everything; someone that I could always go to and ask: What about this?

For refrigeration I used to know that guy. His name was Perley Barker. And although he lived into his 90's, he is gone now.

Oh; let me think here - "A pound's a pound the world around." Is that how it goes? <g>

I's sorry - I've forgotten the other question already. I'll have to go back and see it again.

I sometimes wonder if it isn't the ultimate horror of the truely competent when they are dying - so much work, so much accumulated knowing; no matter how self-satisfying, still; gone for nothing in the end.

[chill factor]

I'll answer it! A pound is a pound. Its volume is different for the both objects.
Just be careful of the wind, otherwise the gold will win!

[Poodle Head Mikey]

John,

I believe that the path is very long, and so must be started early and kept at diligently. And as soon as walking is mastered, big steps are best if the end is ever to be sighted.

As you may know; Michaelangelo's wet nurce was the wife of stone cutter. As a baby he grew up playing in the stone cutter's workshop; playing with stone chips and pieces, stone cutting tools, wondering, and asking and learning: watching a master stone cutter's hands at work with the stone. As he grew no doubt he helped in the shop; felt the stone for himself. And in the end, arguably perhaps, he eventually went farther than anyone else on that particular path. At least I think that we can easily agree: very far.

When I was a small child I vividly remember being amazed; astonished even, that a machine, which was almost all warm, made the inside of the refrigerator cold. Produced ice in fact. How could that be? I also remember that no one could answer my questions. Most still can't. <g>

So? How long? I am sure that some would say: Too Long. <g>

[Shophound]

When I was a small child I vividly remember being amazed; astonished even, that a machine, which was almost all warm, made the inside of the refrigerator cold. Produced ice in fact. How could that be? I also remember that no one could answer my questions. Most still can't. <g>

I remember as a child playing out in the backyard and wandering over to our house's condensing unit and putting my hand on a bare spot in the big copper line coming out of the ground and it was sweaty and cold. I thought somehow this machine was "making cold" and sending it into the house through that sweaty pipe. I wanted to know how it did that.

One really hot day that machine stopped working and my mother called out a man to look at it. I started asking him lots of questions about how it worked. He was a patient man, up in years, and seemed to enjoy my curiosity. He got our machine going again and, since he worked for himself, he took me inside our house as it cooled down and began explaining to me how that machine actually worked, using drawings and big words like "refrigerant", "expansion valve", "condenser", etc. I was entranced.

When he finally told me that the sweaty pipe wasn't actually putting cold into the house but rather carrying heat out of the house, I was blown away. "Impossible!" I said. "That pipe is colder than the house, how can it be taking the heat in the house and dumping it out here?" He then took me over to our stove, had me fill up a pan with water, light a fire under it, and bring it to a boil. He once again took me through basic refrigeration theory. This time, it sunk in. I think I was about twelve.

Been hooked ever since.

[john dalton]

Dear Poodle Head Mikey,

The wizard title was from the biography of your own profile section that you yourself wrote, so if you’re not comfortable with the title, I might consider removing it from my bio, if I were you.

I too had a “Perley Barker” as a mentor, his name was Rufus Henessey, and what he didn’t know about large ammonia refrigeration systems, wasn’t worth knowing. He lived into his late eighties, but has since gone to be with the Lord’s HVAC service crew. Learned a lot about refrigeration from that man, also learned a lot about people as well.

Well, back to the present time. Good news my friend, your about to learn something new on this thread, contrary to your last post about learning nothing new.

A pound, in fact, is NOT a pound indeed. You see, a pound of feathers weights approximately 33% more than a mere pound of gold, and that is a solid fact my friend!

You see, all precious gems and metals, including gold, is weighted in the “troy system” of weights, this system has twelve (12) ounces in its pound. Feathers on the other hand, like all other common items, are weighted in the “avoirdupois system” of weights; this system of course has sixteen (16) ounces in its pound. Therefore the 16 ounces of feathers weight approximately 33% more than the 12 ounces of gold. I told you this was not as simple as it first looks. And there you have it…..you can now say you learned something on this thread.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[john dalton]

Dear Poodle Head Mikey,

Regarding your previous post:

“I sometimes wonder if it isn't the ultimate horror of the truely competent when they are dying - so much work, so much accumulated knowing; no matter how self-satisfying, still; gone for nothing in the end.”

I couldn’t agree with you more my friend. So many truly gifted and experienced service technicians go to their grave without mentoring a single individual in their life time, what a waste, what a crime.

That’s why I believe in a complete and comprehensive study program with all of our junior and senior service technicians. A forum, be it online, in person, or across the phone, it a great way to exchange ideas, knowledge, experience, and personal preferences within the company I work for, let alone, everyone else out in the HVAC/R field. Great service technicians have a solemn obligation to share their years of accumulated hands on experience with anyone that asks for it within a given forum or decor.

Just my own option mind you…………………..

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[john dalton]

Dear Chill factor,

Regarding your previous post:

“I'll answer it! A pound is a pound. Its volume is different for the both objects.”

Although you’re right that the densities of these two items are different, the feathers, I’m afraid, still do weight approximately 33% more than the gold does.

Remember, things aren’t always as they may first appear………….

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[john dalton]

Dear Poodle Head Mikey,

Friend, I only asked you how long you’ve been in this industry. A simple 20, 25, 30 years would have sufficed. Too long, or not long enough, are all relative terms and quantify nothing. But thank you for your monolog. Still don’t have the answer. I’m a little concerned, but I’ll dare to ask my next question since I know from your bio that you went to HVAC School in the 1970s, making your time in the industry somewhere between 25 and 35 years. Is your experience in the residential, light commercial, industrial, institutional, or specialty fields?

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[Andy Schoen]

The earliest English weight system was based on the 12-ounce troy pound, which provided the basis on which coins were minted and gold and silver weighed. This troy system modeled the Roman system as their coins were in circulation during this time of the Saxon kings. The troy pound weighs 5760 grains.

The avoirdupois pound was a 16-ounce pound that came about around the year 1300. "Avoir du pois" is a French term meaning "goods of weight". This pound weighs 7000 grains. Merchants preferred a pound that could be easily divided into 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16. The avoirdupois ounce was further divided into 16 drams.

Unfortunately, the two English ounce units don't agree: the avoirdupois ounce is 7000/16 = 437.5 grains while the troy ounce is 5760/12 = 480 grains. Conversion between troy and avoirdupois units is awkward; and no one wanted to bother with it. The troy system quickly became highly specialized, used only for precious metals and for pharmaceuticals, while the avoirdupois pound was used for everything else.

Now you know the rest of the story.

[john dalton]

Dear Shophound,

Nice to see you here at this thread, I know our paths have crossed on other threads. Just checked out your website, nice pictures, and nice life it would appear. I’m guessing from the limited information I saw that you either work for a hospital, or health care facility in Texas. Twelve and all ready interested in the HVAC/R field, that’s a great story friend.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[Carnak]

Is Paul Harvey still alive?

[john dalton]

Dear Andy Schoen,

I see we shop for information from the same website my friend. Always a pleasure seeing the post of a gifted and knowledgeable person such as yourself. No flattery intended, I’ve read your other posts on this, and other threads and consider your point of views accurate. Good evening.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[Andy Schoen]

Then you may be aware that I've spent a fair amount of time developing a unit converstion program of perhaps some interest: http://www.sporlan.com/unitconverter.htm

The graphic was a creation of my talented advertising dept.