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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Zelienople, Pa
    Posts
    2,965
    So who is it you are paying to moonlight which most reputable companies in this area will dismiss you for doing?
    How tall are you Private???!!!!

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    7,862
    IF you are draining everything into a floor drain by gravity I would just tie the evaporator and furnace condensate drain into one pipe and take this one pipe to the floor drain....make sure to leave a tee at the evaporator outlet so someone can get in and clean out any algae that will collect at the outlet of the evaporator.

    also set the furnace in a drain pan and install a float switch...it will shut down the equipment if something leaks or overflows and fills the pan with water.

    As for your ductwork....its hard to make judgements over the net...you should find an hvac person and get them over to look over the system and get their recommendations...even if you have to pay them a consulting fee.... Call a local hvac supply house...they will probably know someone willing to do this...it would also give you someone to rely on if you need something fabricated from metal or have questions after you start your work.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    3,157
    have you read the manuals that came with your units

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    11,350
    Originally posted by dogturd

    I have heard of Goodman being disparaged by many HVAC guys, but the reasons escape me. Companies that make shody products generally do not last very long, yet Goodman is still around, and they appear to be made in the USA, at least according to the website.

    Regarding your ductwork: I would hope that even in the 1940's, there was scientific principals behind the design of your system, and if the quality is good, I would personally leave it alone.

    Goodman equipment itself can be hit or miss, as with other brands. The ratio of hit to miss of Goodman over other makes is a debatable point of quantification. The common observation is that most hack installations use Goodman equipment, which brings derision, however deserved or not, toward the manufacturer of the equipment for selling to unqualified buyers.

    Your comments regarding the OP's ductwork are speculative at best. Ductwork installed in the 1940's was likely sized for the CFM output (I'm assuming we're not talking about a gravity system) of the equipment of that era, if the installer even took it that far. Today's forced air equipment produce considerably higher CFM's than older stuff, which if installed on antiquated ductwork often results in static pressures higher than the equipment is rated for to perform properly.
    • Electricity makes refrigeration happen.
    • Refrigeration makes the HVAC psychrometric process happen.
    • HVAC pyschrometrics is what makes indoor human comfort happen...IF the ducts AND the building envelope cooperate.


    A building is NOT beautiful unless it is also comfortable.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    11,350
    Originally posted by corny
    IF you are draining everything into a floor drain by gravity I would just tie the evaporator and furnace condensate drain into one pipe and take this one pipe to the floor drain....make sure to leave a tee at the evaporator outlet so someone can get in and clean out any algae that will collect at the outlet of the evaporator.

    also set the furnace in a drain pan and install a float switch...it will shut down the equipment if something leaks or overflows and fills the pan with water.

    I personally wouldn't tie the evap condensate drain and the secondary heat exchanger condensate drain into the same waste line, but that's just me. I'd also put a removable cap on the tee if it's upstream of the p-trap.

    Question: if the furnace is an up or downflow, how do you go about setting it into a secondary drain pan?
    Answer: haven't seen one yet that has it. For up or downflow, a float switch can be installed in the primary drain line.
    • Electricity makes refrigeration happen.
    • Refrigeration makes the HVAC psychrometric process happen.
    • HVAC pyschrometrics is what makes indoor human comfort happen...IF the ducts AND the building envelope cooperate.


    A building is NOT beautiful unless it is also comfortable.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    7,862
    original poster said installation is in a basement...soooooo a drain pan could be easily put under the unit...it adds nothing to the height....if he does the unit right and sets the unit or the box the unit is sitting on...on pump ups or something simaler.... I put a drain pan under every unit I install....dont do any downflows but I have installed upflows and ran the duct off the top of the unit and 180'ed back down into a crawlspace before.....put a drainpan under the unit then too....

    I would tie the drains together.....both are dumping into a floor drain so why not......do people use a seperate condensate pump when using a pump on a furnace/ac installation. Driving moisture into the heat exchanger by a positive pressure on the drain...or algae growing up into the exchanger during the cooling season are the only things I could see that might...and I say might happen because of this....but the exchanger will hold moisture for a while after the last use anyway.......in the lower part of the condensing section and in the furnace condensate trap. Heat exchanger aint gonna last that long anyway before it fails due to shoddy manufacturing techniques used today....

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    So your suggesting its a good idea to allow algea to be dumped into the condensate trap of the furnace? If the mfg recommends a second drain and one isn't used then it seems to me that the installation techniqes have a real bearing on the longevity of the equipment.


    from installation instructions....

    "IMPORTANT: Do not connect into
    a common drain line with an air
    conditioner evaporator coil drain
    located above the furnace."

  8. #21
    I have worked with a HO similar to yourself who was building his house. He was an engineer and wanted to save money on the install much like you. He purchased two Goodman furnaces and air conditioners for his 5,ooo sq ft house without doing a heat load calc by the way. I did one for him and it was close but the cooling was undersized. But anyways he built his house with no thought towards the duct system , so it would've been a nightmare to install. He wanted to use my account with a local supplier to buy the duct and then have me install the duct for him. I would've also been doing the final hook ups and answering a hundred of his questions everyday. He wouldn't pay my fee(or anyone elses) so I walked. He ended up finding someone to sell him duct which he just guessed the size at. Hmmm... I wonder how comfortable his home is. Answer... its NOT. If you don't follow all the rules at the time of installation your system will never work the way it should and there isn't anything anybody will be able to do to fix it.

    I understand that you feel that you can perform the tasks at hand your self. You want to take the time to make it work and look good. It is one thing to read the manuals and follow directions and then doing it. It is another to understand why you are doing it. Unless you completely understand how and why everything on your comfort system works then there is a good chance you will fail at a good installation. I have done hundreds of installs and I can tell you that you won't find all the information you need in an instruction manual or on this site. So if you do it yourself you are taking a risk. You know you are smart and capable of follwing directions but you'll be suprised at what you can miss and how it can effect the operation in the short or long run. If you are smart then you will hire a professional you can trust.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    7,862
    Originally posted by docholiday
    So your suggesting its a good idea to allow algea to be dumped into the condensate trap of the furnace? If the mfg recommends a second drain and one isn't used then it seems to me that the installation techniqes have a real bearing on the longevity of the equipment.


    from installation instructions....

    "IMPORTANT: Do not connect into
    a common drain line with an air
    conditioner evaporator coil drain
    located above the furnace."

    where did I suggest it was a good idea to have algae in the condensate trap...

    Is that a generic warning that is in all manufacturers instructions... or is it specific to one manufacturers instructions??? Please post a source for the warning so I may better my skills.... Granted I have never really paid attention to the drain instructions in my installation instructions but still I believe I would have noticed something as important as that.


    But...thanks for the info....if I ever install another condensing furnace/ac combo...I will read the instruction more closely in regards to proper drainage techniques....

    by the way....On any furnace ac combo I have ever installed...draining it the way I descibed.... has never seen the longevity of the furnace undermined by the drain , ...furnace longevity today is undermined primarily by cheap manufacturing and by service technicians who are in reality parts changers/salesmen whos primary concern when arriving at the customers house is to make commission.

    [Edited by corny on 04-03-2005 at 09:40 AM]

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Perth - Western Australia
    Posts
    775
    Once again, GOODMAN Basterdized!, this is why i will not buy or sell any goodman. just think , for every homeowner that buys one unit, they lost a good contractor the buys many ! once more of the legitimate contractors catch on to this & stand strong, the abuse will stop.It will wake them up.
    Another thought! shows like 60 mins & date line are hellbent on ratting out bad contractors, why not do a special on do it yourselfers installing equipment & the houses they burn down, the people they kill or make sick & the laws they break.

    "Dear homeowner, dont you have some sharp blades around ? You dont need a doctor ,You can cut out the tumor Yourself & save Thousands !"

    The Captain........

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    No, I was merely pointing out that by suggesting you drain your coil into the furnace condesate tee and that you multiply the chance of crap such as algea ending up in the furnace trap. Have you ever tried to clean one of these things out? Its easier to replace it. Why put yourself as the service technician through that?

    I coppied and pasted from, I think a Ruud installtion manual. No, they are not all the same, but the principal is. Pick your brand and see what it says, if it says to dump the a/c drain into the furnace, by all means go ahead.

    We can complain about quality and the fact that HX arent oversized cast iron beasts all we want, but until such time there are no longer any efficiency requirements or public demand for better efficiency, we can proably plan on the construction not changing back. Most Secondary HX are made from high quality stainless steel in effort to deal with the acidic condesate from flue gasses. Yeah we all know the conspiracy theory, we all know a bullitproof unit is possible but as long as mfg's, distributors, dealers and contractors want to remain hung in a price driven market, its nothing more than a dream.

    I personally think the equipment built today is as good, if not better than it has ever been when you consider everything involved including the codes, safeties, efficienies, technology and other requirements that dictate the fuctions of todays equipment. Yes indeed, some are better than others.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Balt/Wash
    Posts
    214
    Didn't Harry homeowner say he had a contractor to "Hook er up" ...why not ask HIM these questions.
    My gut says "side job"

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    20

    Thumbs down Carefull thought required!!!!!!!!!!

    Rules are rules no DIYers.
    I don't cook great meals... I'm not a chef!
    I don't arrest people.... I'm not a cop!
    I don't know how to cure... I'm not a Doctor!
    Are you getting this!
    With plenty of schooling, even more on the job training,
    ALMOST anyone can do a simple residential install and start-up.
    Be smart, hire a Pro! Most of us old timers enjoy having someone look over our sholders and ask alot of questions.
    Thats what makes us all smarter.
    But to attempt this on your own, even just the things YOU THINK YOU CAN DO? Please Sir. Get the right help while you still have the chance not to make a BIG mistake.
    Good luck to you.

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