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Thread: R22

  1. #53
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    Lancaster PA
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    Originally posted by docholiday
    Originally posted by karsthuntr
    Gemaire Group aka... Belleville Supply.
    So I'll see you there? haha

    Beenthere missed the last one but I'll let him know when theres another one scheduled up his way.
    Thank you.
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    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  2. #54
    As a customer, I am finding that my biggest challenge is finding a contractor who is willing or able to do the work to get me a system that runs its best. I have talked to 6 in my area, and its a small area, so there are not a whole lot more to choose from, and some, like those selling Carrier or Bryant are used to working with 410, and reccomend it. The rest, who don't primarily install Carrier or its subsidiares, are recommending R22. They all say the choice is up to me, and they will put in whatever I want.
    Like one contractor I talked to said "Yeah I have installed a system with it so if thats what you want, I can do it." Somehow I don't want to be the second job someone's ever done. Now, he seemed well versed in r410, talking about its greater sensitivity to moisture, higher pressures etc. One point he mentioned is that though lines, condensor coils and evaporators are built for the high pressures, the compressors are the same scroll compressers used in good r22 equipment. He made the claim that given the same motor size, what would you think lasts longer... a compressor running against 240 head pressure on a hot day or one runnning against 600+ psi.
    Now, i don't know the full story, but what I do know is that I think I will get a better install by choosing the system and refridgerant that the installer is most familiar with and comfortable working on. That goes for problems too. I want the guy to be familiar with the real world workings of the refridgerant that is in my system, and not have it a "learning" experiance, "I have never seen pressures like that before,,, what could it be?"

  3. #55
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
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    14,915
    Originally posted by atascadero kid
    One point he mentioned is that though lines, condensor coils and evaporators are built for the high pressures, the compressors are the same scroll compressers used in good r22 equipment. He made the claim that given the same motor size, what would you think lasts longer... a compressor running against 240 head pressure on a hot day or one runnning against 600+ psi.
    He needs to learn more about the equipment because this is wrong.

    The compressors used with R-410a equipment are not the same as with R-22.

    The head pressure the compressor is "working against" is irrelevant. The important thing is the compression ratio. R-410a requires a lower compression ratio than R-22, so an R-22 compressor actually has to work harder than an R-410a compressor running in the same conditions.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  4. #56
    Damn... Why aren't one of you guys working here in central CA? Hell considering that 20 grand bid I got, it might be worth it to fly one of you out here. Anybody up for a trip to "Sideways" country? Wine tasting tour on me.

  5. #57
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia
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    4,264
    Originally posted by atascadero kid
    One point he mentioned is that though lines, condensor coils and evaporators are built for the high pressures, the compressors are the same scroll compressers used in good r22 equipment.
    Some brands use the exact same evaporator coils as the 22 coils. The only difference is the TXV.
    There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action....Mark Twain

  6. #58
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    Originally posted by atascadero kid
    One point he mentioned is that though lines, condensor coils and evaporators are built for the high pressures, the compressors are the same scroll compressers used in good r22 equipment.
    As previously posted this is exactly opposite of the truth.

    The compressor is indeed more robust, and the coils, lines are made with the same thickness. I cant say their might not be some changes in circuiting, but the coils are virtually the same.

  7. #59
    More robust Doc?
    Could you please explain the differences?
    I've heard conflicting stories about the compressor that is used for the 410-A.
    I know that the compressor used to move R-22 through a refrigerant circuit is pretty darned "robust".
    I would like some technical specs and charachteristics on the differences.
    Also as noted, a TXV changeout is all that is needed on a Carrier variable speed airhandler coil to convert to 410-A @ the indoor section.
    410-A is no big deal. The changes are inevitable and I have installed quite a few Puron systems already.
    Higher pressures. Big whoop.
    A zeotrope whose compounds leak @ different rates should be checked to ensure that the refrigerant charachteristics are the same if a leak is found.

  8. #60
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    Apr 2004
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    The internals are different in order to operate at much higher pressure differences, not ot mention internal relief's etc. and the seal around the electrical connections is more robust. Hey, feel free to try an R22 compressor in its place.

    While the Carrier coil may be rated the same (many are), then so be it, as I said, the coil wall thickness doesnt change, but I dont think Carrier ever suggested using a coil that was actually used in an exsisting R22 system to be later converted to R410A by merely changing the TXV.


  9. #61
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
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    Most of the coils used for R-410a are no different than R-22 coils, they just use a different TXV.

    Trane has has some air handlers out now that have a coil designed specifically for R-410a. It is nice because the smaller tubing diamaters allow the coil to take up less space while still maintaining the required surface area, so the new air handlers are about 25% smaller than the old ones.
    I don't know if the tubing thickness has changed.

    I would assume that other companies have similar things in the works.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  10. #62
    I have been told by our Carrier guy that I can convert a R-22 FK4DNF model airhandler to Puron by simply changing the TXV.

    I'm not suggesting using a R-22 compressor on a 410-A system Doc so there's no need to get defensive, but I would sure like some specifics on the differences.

    Guess I'll have to check with compressor and equipment manufacturers to understand what makes them more "robust".

  11. #63
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
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    Originally posted by docholiday
    The internals are different in order to operate at much higher pressure differences, not ot mention internal relief's etc. and the seal around the electrical connections is more robust. Hey, feel free to try an R22 compressor in its place.

    While the Carrier coil may be rated the same (many are), then so be it, as I said, the coil wall thickness doesnt change, but I dont think Carrier ever suggested using a coil that was actually used in an exsisting R22 system to be later converted to R410A by merely changing the TXV.


    They are "matched "systems",R22 or Puron/410a .

  12. #64
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
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    We have been installing Puron/410a since 1997 or 98,over 800 systems in 2004 alone,at least a 1200 over the few years before that.

    There are no issues,other then which refrigerant will cost more in the next few years.

    Like Doc,I don't have a crystal ball,but from what I've read 2013 or 2014 ,will be when the prices will be reversed.

  13. #65
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    2,597
    if anything, prices of the two will not will not "reverse".

    410 will stay the same and 22 will slowly creep up.

    that's like saying carrier is going to bring prices on 13 seer models down to 10 prices, once the law takes effect.

    don't think so.

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