R22

[bornriding]

R-410a is a zeotropic blend - it does have the possibility of fractionation as well as temp. glide. That is why it must be charged as a liquid.
Even though due to the percentages, it is not as sensitive to fractionation as others, it will still fractionate.
And the only, truly reliable, way of properly charging the system is to remove existing charge & recharge by weight.
And, of course, any 410 recovered from a system should be
reclaimed as the tech will not know if fractionation has occurred.

If there is a system leak, how would the tech know if fractionation has occurred and what percentage of refrigerants remain. If he recovers the refrigerant left, then the tech still cannot be sure of the percentages within the recovery tank.

And this is one reason, I don't want to go to 410
I will wait until a drop-in replacement for R-22 has been
approved.

Also with higher pressures, I believe that more leaking system will occur, and there will be problems with recharges.

This is only my opinion

[GradyWhite244]

I could not have said it better myself, probably not as well.

[docholiday]

ok...do as you wish.

a leak is a leak and pressure is irrelevent.

From the Genetron Website....

"Because it behaves like an azeotrope, R-410A is easy to service in the field. It won't meaningfully change composition if an air conditioner suffers a refrigerant leak, and R-410A can be easily recovered and reclaimed, giving it a substantial advantage over other R-22 replacements such as R-407C or R-417A. R-410A has been given an A1 safety classification by ASHRAE. "

I feel sorry for those who cannot acknowlege changes that WILL happen. No drop in replacement will ever be developed and accepted by any equipment manufacturer at least prior to the change mandated.

Apparently the classes you have attended have been sales classes and not true training classes or taught by someone who is misinformed. For that I am sorry. I am not advocating any refrigerant, I am however advocating that we all keep up with industry changes and holding out will not change anything but the ability to profit and survive in a changing market.

You'll have to look Gemaire up in the book. A/C Equipment Distributor.

[docholiday]

From Honeywell, makers of Genetron Refrigerants....

2015 Reductions
Some dealers wrongly believe that R-22 for servicing existing systems will not be affected until 2020. Actually, the EPA is required to implement additional regulations to reduce the limit on consumption of ozone-depleting HCFCs such as R-22 by 90% after 2014.

Although the U.S. demand for R-22 for servicing existing systems is likely to decrease by that date, the available HCFC allocation will have to be used to supply refrigerants (R-22, R-124, R-142b, MP39, MP66, HP80, and others) and solvents (HCFC-225ca, HCFC-225cb).

Most new air conditioning and refrigeration equipment being installed today is expected to still be in service in 2015, so building owners and consumers need to take into consideration the potential for future shortages of HCFC products when considering installing new R-22 or other HCFC-based equipment. This is particularly important if systems sold today are covered by warranties or service contracts.

Although regulations allow for continued production of R-22 for service through 2019, there is no guarantee that the quantities that will be produced or made available will be sufficient to meet U.S. market demand. Individuals and companies who make claims guaranteeing sufficient supply of HCFC-22 until 2020 do so at their own risk

Further reading... http://www.410a.com/myths/03.html

[Edited by docholiday on 03-26-2005 at 03:56 PM]

[bornriding]

Did not mean to indicate in any waythat what yo said was incorrect.
Just relaying that any refrigerant in the 400 series is a zeotropic blend. All zeo's have fractionation & temp glide ( can't help it ). However 410 may not be at a mixture that will break apart easily.

And I absolutely agree that manufacturers will never recommend a drop-in replacement as that would hurt their resell of new equipment. They don't want you to repair an R-22 system, they want you to replace it. Repairs - they don't make money !!! Replacements make them money.
Would not be good 'business sense' to recommend anything but replacement.

Manufacturers have their own reasons for their recommendations, but one thing for sure, their recommendations are not made with our benefit in mind.

So, excuse me if I don't believe everything that a manufacturer distributes, as I don't believe everything (or none at all ) of what the government tells me.
I guess I'm just a skeptic.

[mcewans]

There is also something else to consider. Most of the "drop in" replacements are HFC which use POE oil. Most R22 systems including the newer ones still have the mineral or AB oil, so even if one did decide to retrofit a R22 system, flushing out the oil would be a must.

[billva]

"THE CALIFORNIA DAILY WORRY GAZETTE"
03/26/2014
story by: Spot Tedowl, Reporter


Today the governor of California, Cameron Diaz, has stated the demise of all chemical refrigerants in the state, due to the recent deaths of millions of brown cockroach's in apartment buildings and other community living sites.

The brown cockroach brownius cockroachius), was a common pet among the children of California, and parents were getting tired of telling thier children they were living on "uncle Ralphs farm".

Gov. Diaz said rersearch from UCLA has indicated the potential harm from chemical refrigerants to the roaches and stated "duh, if you can't club a baby seal then you can't, like, kill, like, a kids pet, you know?"

California is proposing that we no longer use chemicals, but, Evian, for all future refrigerant needs.

The governor also said her nine year marriage to Billva was incredibly "fantabulous" and that he is the "bestest" husband a woman could dream for.
__________________________________________________ __________


nobody knows what will be developed tomorrow in the world of refrigerants. today 410, tomorrow ?

for the next 25 years we'll have our choice of 22 AND 410.

i'm personally going to stick with 22 for my families and my own systems for now. and only if a customer insists on 410 (and there are only a handful that have) will it be installed. at a greater initial price, of course.

[-80guru]

Count me in R-22 loyalty.

[docholiday]

Doc Shakes his head in amazement...

I found the definition here... http://members.aol.com/nonverbal3/headshak.htm

HEAD-SHAKE

Gesture. 1. Rotating the head horizontally from side-to-side a. to disagree, or b. to show misunderstanding of a speaker's words. 2. In an emotional conversation, a rhythmic, side-to-side rotation of the head to express disbelief, sympathy, or grief.

Usage: The head-shake is used to demonstrate a. cognitive dissonance, or b. emotional empathy.

[beenthere]

I am sooo confused.

I just don't undestand the resistance to 410a.

All you really have to do, is treat it the way we were always suppose to treat 22.

So the pressure is alittle higher. Brazed joints can take alot more pressure then a 410a systems running pressures, so thats no big deal.

Come 2010, and the choice is gone.

Although allowed to produce 22 till 2020, who knows what the price will be. You could be paying twice as much for 22 in the future as 410a. Meaning you aren't doing your customer any favor by not offering them the choice.

Ok, liquid charging only, some will have a hard time getting use to that.

[mcewans]

In the place I work we have a Co2 fire protection system that uses R-404A refrigerant. This has to be charged as a liquid. Unless, I am mistaken, the only difference the charging procedure between a R410A system and a R404A system is the higher vapor pressure of R410A.

[beenthere]

Your right, 404a is a liquid only charge refrigerant.

[duct dr]

So what is R410a exactly? It's a near-azeotropic 50/50 blend of R32 and R125. Some seperation of the 2 components can occur in the vapor phase, but not enough to cause a significant change in the composition of the refrigerant with a refrigerant leak. IF a leak (small) is discovered the system can in fact be "topped" off.

This information was taken from R410a pub. # 34-4066-04

Recently attended yet another class on R410a, and am still amazed at the number of people that seem to be either against it of affraid of it.

[docholiday]

Thanks Duct Dr.

I agree 100%. But I think the conspiracy theorists will still not accept it regardless.

BTW, Happy Easter.

[craftyone]

anyone know of 410a classes in the phoenix area?

[duct dr]

Very welcome doc, and Happy Easter to you also.

[golan37]

Has anybody taken a look at the price increase for R-22 over the past year? I think we might get forced into a complete changeover to R-410A sooner than some may think. sure they are comeing up with some replacements for R-22 but from what I have seen of them so far they are absolute junk. We may eventually see replacements for R-22 that will work as well as some of the replacements that were developed for R-12, R-502 but remember we lost some capacity with most of these. Personally when I replace the old Lennox A/C, a new system with R-410A will go in it's place. The manufacturers have various criteria they use when choosing what refrigerant they will use, it is up to us to adapt, those that don't will find themselves left behind. So far I have had fewer incidences of leaks with R-410A equipment than I every have had with R-22 equipment. R-22 was very forgiving when we didn't play by the rules but if we do play by the rules with R-410A I have seen even fewer problems than we had with R-22.

[billva]

people are not afraid of 410. we have a proven reliable product with 22.

if it aint broke, don't fix it.

[-80guru]

Hey I just like working with 22. I'll use 410a when the time comes, I have no qualms, fears or conspiracy notions about it. I work with all kinds of refrigerants, 410A no differant to me. Just loyal thats all.

[duct dr]

billva, if R410a wasnt a reliable and proven product, would it still be on the market and so widely used?