Poor dehumidification on new HVAC system

[fat eddy]

What type of filter is on the unit ? is it the same as before ?

[tinknocker service tech]

your humidity level is with in range
but with out a proper subcool and super heat how can anyone say the system is operating properly
if the refrigerant is not ajusted properly to much or to little the coil might cool but not dehumidify properly
if the coil has a restriction in it or the txv asuming it has one is faulty same thing realy cant posibly know what is going on inside the system with out subcool or superheat readings. if it has an orfice and not txv you are not getting full rating on seer. also if orfice is not the right size again wont operate properly.
you stated cold air from registers in winter and you close them off. if the pipe runs condensated during this time and have water in them from condensating in the winter is could cause this problem also
i have seen a lot of overhead systems condensate in cold wheather and fill up the flex runs going to the outlets with water. have even seen water dripping from some to and replaced the flex runs and gave the coustomers blank offs for the returns to stop the draft in the winter
it sounds like it might be time to get a second opinion on your system. it might cost a few dolars for someone to came out and check it but it might be worth while and the expense in the long run

[rhblake57]

To Golan 3-27-05

Thank for your suggestions re smoke candles.
I bought smoke candles last summer and used them in the attic near the return duct, with the system running, and found that smoke was brought into the house from the smoke in the attic. It was not a lot of smoke. Just enough to smell in the living area. I then wrapped the return in 8mil plastic.

I told the Bryant dealer/distributer engineer and my contractor this when they came to the house last July. They completely ignored my concern as being of no importance.

Last July when I questioned the Bryant dealer as to whether there was a way to measure the line temps at the condenser and coil he and the contractor said definitely no. Both said if pressures were right there can't be any problem, period!

Finally on my third visit in Bryant dealers office, I told him, flat out, "I believe you are not telling me the truth as I have talked with another brand's dealer/distributer and he told me about sub cool and super heat temps".

He grudgingly said yes but they are irrelevant, if the pressure is right.

He also insisted that there is no way to measure superheat at the coil as there are no pistons in the TXV valve in the Bryant FX4BNF030000 2.5 ton Puron fan coil that I have.

This visit with the Bryant dealer/distributer was prior to my finding this great opportunity to communicate directly with other experts about HVAC about problems.

Since July 2004, I have had several talks with Bryant Customer service in Syracuse NY. The head of customer service has told me twice that she could offer no help except to tell me to contact the local Bryant distributer for info re my concerns. It's sort of like asking my contractor for mercy!

Your post notes that there should be a "sensing bulb" strapped to the suction line properly and insulated. And that "if attic temps get to the suction line before or at the sensing bulb then I will have problems".

The Bryant dealer didn't part with that bit of info.

One Poster suggests that because I am "an old man" I will never be satisfied. I probably couldn't whip him in a fair fight, but I would say my brain would be a very equal opponent to his. I learn very quickly thanks to all the positive help that I'm getting on this thread. Older is always better, especially in cheese and wine!

Thanks Golan

Originally posted by golan37
Make sure that the entire duct system is 100% airtite. An easy way to check this if you just happen to smoke, (Service Techs don't ever do this at a clients home) is to turn the system on go to a window or door and crack it slightly, light a cigarette and observe what the smoke does. If it is blown outward check for leakage in the returns, if it is sucked inward check for supply leakage. Both will cause humidity problems. This must be done on a day with no wind. A candle flame will work just as well but be careful. I have also used HVAC smoke candles but from the outside of the home.

I also wonder if the sensing bulb for the TXV is correctly installed. Is it strapped tightly to the suction line? and with the brass straps that came with the kit? or just strapped on with wire ties? Is the sensing bulb properly placed on the suction line. Any position from 2 to 4 or 10 to 8 oclock will work fine. If it is mounted to the top or bottom of the suction line it may have problems sensing the temperature of the suction line. Finally is the suction line and sensing bulb properly insulated? If attic air temps can get at the suction line before the sensing bulb or at the sensing bulb there will be problems.

Checking to make sure that system superheat is correct should show these problems.

[rhblake57]

To Tinknocker 3-27-05

Thanks for the thoughts. I believe that u bend in the condensate pipe in the attic was probably filled with frozen water in January and February here in New England but next winter to be certain I will put some water in in December.

You are one of several who have added to my confidence that sub cool and super heat tests are absolutely neccessary.

Is it true that the test for sub cool-super heat can not be done until the outside temp reaches 70 degrees and some humidity?

The Bryant dealer/distributer assures me that the testing equipment for sub cool-super heat have only been on the market for six months. And that nobody has bought one from his company,F W Webb, as contractors are not going to spend 2 or 3 hundred dollars for a tool that is not neccessary and redundant. I asked if he owned one, since he was an engineer resposible for helping with customer problems. He did not.

Thanks again rhblake57@comcast.net

Originally posted by tinknocker service tech
your humidity level is with in range
but with out a proper subcool and super heat how can anyone say the system is operating properly
if the refrigerant is not ajusted properly to much or to little the coil might cool but not dehumidify properly
if the coil has a restriction in it or the txv asuming it has one is faulty same thing realy cant posibly know what is going on inside the system with out subcool or superheat readings. if it has an orfice and not txv you are not getting full rating on seer. also if orfice is not the right size again wont operate properly.
you stated cold air from registers in winter and you close them off. if the pipe runs condensated during this time and have water in them from condensating in the winter is could cause this problem also
i have seen a lot of overhead systems condensate in cold wheather and fill up the flex runs going to the outlets with water. have even seen water dripping from some to and replaced the flex runs and gave the coustomers blank offs for the returns to stop the draft in the winter
it sounds like it might be time to get a second opinion on your system. it might cost a few dolars for someone to came out and check it but it might be worth while and the expense in the long run

[rhblake57]

To Fat Eddy 3-27-05

The filter is at the return grill in the living area hallway and is the same size as before.

Thanks for your interest rhblake57@comcast.net

Originally posted by fat eddy
What type of filter is on the unit ? is it the same as before ?

[chillbilly]

Superheat/subcooling should have been measured during startup as well as airflow,air leakage, amp draws, delta T, etc, etc.
I have a hard time understanding how those basic things were not checked if indeed, they weren't.
If your indoor humidity level is within the desired range, and the s/a vs r/a temp difference is within spec, the system may be doing exactly what is required.

[tinknocker service tech]

rhblake57

you misunderstand me a little on this
the ubend in the candensate pipe should not be fill with water in december
i was talking about the flex runs to the registers in the cieling. if cold air is aloud to draft throught them in cold weather they can condensate and collect water over the winter
with hot air rising up throught the return and cold air falling from the registers into the house can cause this to happen in the supply runs to the registers
the condensate line from the unit should not have water added to it because it will freze and crack

[rhblake57]

To Icimpala65 3-27-05

I'm saddened you feel so negatively about my concerns.

Secondly, I'm not "looking for something to use against my contractor"

I am hoping to understand enough about my system to help my contractor solve the problem he either can't or won't.
If he won't then I will have enough knowledge to help another contractor solve my problem.

Another kind expert on this site differs with you, and was kind enough to pass on a link to a Carrier site, that displays a chart showing that the optimum humidity percentage is between 40 ad 60 percent.

While not everyone will be happy at 40 to 45 percent, I was.

I believe that Carrier/Bryant publishes that info because it is true.

My system last summer never got below 50 percent and was often 55 percent.

I wanted what Carrier/Bryant promises.

Hopefully, when I have enough info from you and other caring experts in this field of expertise, I can pass this info on And my contractor will do the neccessary work, if there is any left to be done.

He then will have that knowledge if the same problem arises with his future customers.

I'm now happily retired. I learned in my 45 years as a very successful salesman, that if a customer believes he has a problem with my product, then he has a problem that needs to be resolved to his satisfaction. Not my satisfaction!! In 45 years I never had one unresolved customer concern. Period!

Anybody can sell a product. The man or company who doesn't sell satisfaction with that product will be out of business in a few years.

Of course, I'm sure you already know this, and that you do everything to resolve your customer's problems.

Thanks again for your help rhblake57@comcast.net

Originally posted by lcimpala65
Have we not all encountered this in the past? The humidity in the house is fine. The fact that the humidity OUTSIDE the home is 70% or higher is not relevant, the five gallon bucket story isn't relevant, what is relevant is the actual humidity level in the home,period. The equipment is maintaining proper humidity levels IN the home, the levels are industry standard, the unit is cooling the home satisfactorily; what else do we expect the equipment to do?. This gent wants something fixed that isn't broke. It's the same old story, it doesn't work as good as the junk he had replaced, and he bases this on what? how many drops of condensate he sees flow out of the air handler. Give me a break!! Older folks never can adjust to the newer technology used in modern heating and air equipment, his contractor and Bryant has given up on him because there is NO problem. You can't fix what isn't broke. Now I know mister home owner you will be mad about this post, but trust me NO ONE on this site is going to fix this for you, or give you a magic bullet piece of info that you can use against your contractor. The fact is you don't have a problem.

[rhblake57]

To Chillbilly 3-27-05

I guess this is the old shoulda, coulda, woulda. I'm not sure the workers for this contrator were very qualified.
If I had met theworkers when I met him, I don't believe that I would have hired him. They made a lot of other errors such as:
1 A plasic plug removed from the coil was left in the condensate pan and blocked the drain pipe and flowed over into the secondary pan under the air handler. Of course the feed ductwork to all the rooms was soaked, but they would not replace them as they insisted that they would dry out when I ran the system awhile.
2 After that visit they had to return again since the air handler coil runoff pan was sloped completly to the back of the unit so water was pooling at the back of the air handler.
3 They pushed a light fixture in my hall ceiling through the attic floor and tied it back up with plastic ties. Of couse they never told me, and I only noticed a month later when plaster started to fall off the ceiling in my hallway that leads to the bedrooms.
4 At point of sale, the contractor assured my wife and me that I had a 3 ton air handler despite my having a 2.5 ton tag on the condenser outdoors. So he sold and installed a 2.5 condenser and a 3 ton air handler. I did not know how to read the air handler tag. Fortunately the Bryant dealer/distributer swapped it at no charge for a 2.5 ton air handler. I had to pay the contractor an additional $300 cash for the labor to remove and swap the unit.
The contractor refused to downsize the plenums into and out of the air handler which were now much too big for the smaller 2.5 ton air handler. So they are attached, but hang over the entry and exit to the air handler.
Shoulda, coulda, woulda would be a good title for this thread.

Thank you for your thoughts rhblake57@comcast.net

Originally posted by chillbilly
Superheat/subcooling should have been measured during startup as well as airflow,air leakage, amp draws, delta T, etc, etc.
I have a hard time understanding how those basic things were not checked if indeed, they weren't.
If your indoor humidity level is within the desired range, and the s/a vs r/a temp difference is within spec, the system may be doing exactly what is required.

[rhblake57]

To tiknocker 3-27-05

Are you saying that despite being insulated the ductwork can build condensate? Should I always close off the grills and put plastic around the return filter in the hallway as I did this past winter?

Thanks again rhblake57@comcast.net

Originally posted by tinknocker service tech
rhblake57

you misunderstand me a little on this
the ubend in the candensate pipe should not be fill with water in december
i was talking about the flex runs to the registers in the cieling. if cold air is aloud to draft throught them in cold weather they can condensate and collect water over the winter
with hot air rising up throught the return and cold air falling from the registers into the house can cause this to happen in the supply runs to the registers
the condensate line from the unit should not have water added to it because it will freze and crack

[wormy]

Now that we have a clearer understanding of the quality of work that has been performed, then I highly recommend getting a 'qualified' contractor to come and diagnose the system.

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rhblake57
[B]To Chillbilly 3-27-05

I guess this is the old shoulda, coulda, woulda. I'm not sure the workers for this contrator were very qualified.
If I had met theworkers when I met him, I don't believe that I would have hired him. They made a lot of other errors such as:
1 A plasic plug removed from the coil was left in the condensate pan and blocked the drain pipe and flowed over into the secondary pan under the air handler. Of course the feed ductwork to all the rooms was soaked, but they would not replace them as they insisted that they would dry out when I ran the system awhile.
2 After that visit they had to return again since the air handler coil runoff pan was sloped completly to the back of the unit so water was pooling at the back of the air handler.
3 They pushed a light fixture in my hall ceiling through the attic floor and tied it back up with plastic ties. Of couse they never told me, and I only noticed a month later when plaster started to fall off the ceiling in my hallway that leads to the bedrooms.
4 At point of sale, the contractor assured my wife and me that I had a 3 ton air handler despite my having a 2.5 ton tag on the condenser outdoors. So he sold and installed a 2.5 condenser and a 3 ton air handler. I did not know how to read the air handler tag. Fortunately the Bryant dealer/distributer swapped it at no charge for a 2.5 ton air handler. I had to pay the contractor an additional $300 cash for the labor to remove and swap the unit.
The contractor refused to downsize the plenums into and out of the air handler which were now much too big for the smaller 2.5 ton air handler. So they are attached, but hang over the entry and exit to the air handler.
Shoulda, coulda, woulda would be a good title for this thread.

Thank you for your thoughts rhblake57@comcast.net



rhblake57;

I see that there are some serious issues with sloppiness during installation.
It is OK to upsize the airhandler in various instances up to 1/2 ton...no problem.
So, if you have a 2 ton condensing unit, it would not necessarily be an error on the contractors part to have upsized the indoor unit 1/2 ton.
That noted, condensate plugs and incorrectly sized trunk duct WILL cause some major problems.
There is no reason I can think of why that system will not dehumidify to the lower end of the comfort envelope (45%) easily if (and it's a big if) the design and installation parameters are satisfied.
Also, I somewhat agree with your assesment of the customer being king but I do understand that many customers are not adequately informed as to the requirements that a system will meet.
I know that there cannot be 100% satisfaction in this business. It simply cannot be attained, regardless of how hard we try (and most of the people here do try very hard)
I understand ICIMPALA'S frustration but I would continue to try and solve any issues with dogged persistance for the customer. You have every right to complain if you are not satisfied.

[lcimpala65]

What did you sell?

[rhblake57]

To lcimpala65 3-28-05

You have an intriguing web name. I'll bet that there is an interesting story behind it.

I sold waterless greaseless cookware directly to consumers in their home 1957 to 2003.

Best wishes for success to you

rhblake57@comcast.net

Originally posted by lcimpala65
What did you sell?

[dash]

When it warms up,check the temperature drop,in and out of the air handler,and post it on this site.

My guess is the TXV was overheated and damaged when the system was installed.It is in the air handler,you could look to see if the bulb is attached to the suction line.

[wormy]

Thanks for the reminder Dash.

Though it brings back bad memories hehe.

Had a Carrier air handler that had the same prob.... TXV bulb over heated... (On top of that, the liquid line was undersized. Talk about a wierd one to diagnose.

Bad thing about it.... it was our installers that did it arghhhh. They grabbed 5/16 instead of 3/8. And one of the peons made the welds.
TXV bulb didn't stand a chance being that its only a couple inches away from the weld. Add the fact that they didnt' use any heat block on it.

Least I found out the hard way that Puron DON'T like the wrong line sizes. It makes a HUGE difference.

Wished I woulda wrote down what kinda pressures and temps I had when it was all screwed up.
All I remember was the pressures at the unit were going up and down. It was acting like it was flooding for about 30 seconds then starving for 30 seconds. Along with way too much liquid to not enough liquid. It was as if the TXV was tracking but overshooting/overcompensating way faster than anything I've ever seen. I ended up putting some ports at the air handler and ended up with different pressures and temps altogether.
It was impossible for me to see what kinda temp difference I had from the cond unit to the air handler with my lineset since the pressures where going up and down so fast.
To make matters harder to find.... they started out with 3/8ths at the unit, spliced in 5/16 under house, then made another splice before it got to the air handler. So at first glance, it looked like it was the right size hehe.




[Edited by wormy on 03-28-2005 at 09:58 PM]

[rhblake57]

To Dash 3-28-05

You write about a sensing bulb on the TXV line. What does it look like and where is it attached? I'll look myself.

The Bryant dealer/distributer tech refuses to come out to check my system. He insists that I get someone else to come out and if that man finds something wrong, then the Bryant dealer will come out and fix it.


I'm sure that's a good bet for him judging by the number of techs who answered this thread and said there was nothing wrong my system. Only about 90 percent of the tech posters indicated that they felt that there were ways to check and possibly solve my desire for better dehumidification by checking the sensing bulb and sub cool and super heat. About 50 percent said that the system was dehumidifying fairly well, but should be checked to see if it working at peak performance as expected.

If I hire a new tech, I could unluckily hire someone who didn't believe in or know how to check sub cool or super heat or not be interested in how the sensing bulb is attached to the line as Golan37 noted I should check in his post.

The Bryant dealer tech is probably counting on the latter.

The Bryant dealer tech came out to my house one time only to check the system in July 2004 and recharged the system. He checked no "bulbs" or "super heat or sub cool". He insisted that there was no way to check anything other than refrigerant pressure.

Today, someone who read this HVAC site thread apparently mentioned to him that I was seeking info on this site.


He, the Bryant dealer tech, wrote the e-mail shown below to me today.

As you'll note in his e-mail he says now that "super heat can be checked but not adjusted".

It is sad that the problematic Bryant dealer tech only read the posts on this site that say I have no problem with a system that on the warmest most humid days can only bring the humidity down to 48-50 percent. Some posters on this HVAC site said "50 percent is good enough".

One of the kind posters on this site posted a link to Carrier humidity chart that clearly showed that Carrier's advertised "ideal humidity" is 40 to 60 percent, and that Carrier can reach those values. My system can only dream of 40 percent even when the humidity outdoors is only 50 percent.

I kept a log of temp and humidity for many days during July and August 2004. The lowest that I ever got my house to was 48 percent humidity at night.

I only want the performance that I bought!!

Unfortunately the Bryant Dealer believes that what the customer wants is irrelevant, even if the Bryant/Carrier literature promises 40 to 60 percent humidity levels in the home.

As I wrote to lcimpala65, I don't want to use this info that I get on this site against the dealer. I want to try to understand my problem so that I can convince the dealer tech to do what should have been done last year.
I just want it fixed. I previously had a system for 34 years. I never had one problem in all those years.


This is the e-mail I got from the Bryant tech today.


To: <RHBLAKE57@COMCAST.NET>
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 5:08 PM
Subject: R410A


> DICK
>
> I READ YOUR QUESTION ON HVAC TALK IT SOUNDS LIKE MOST PEOPLE AGREE
> WITH ME. HOWEVER I DID NOT SAY YOU CAN NOT CHECK SUPER HEAT I SAID YOU CAN
> NOT ADJUST IT. WHEN WE RECHARGED THE SYSTEM WE DID NOT PUT BACK WHAT WE
> TOOK OUT WE MEASURED THE LINE AND ADDED THE CORRECT AMOUNT FOR YOUR
> SYSTEM ACCORDING TO YOU PIPING LENGTH THEN CHECKED IT WITH THE CHART LIKE
> I SHOWED YOU. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH YOUR SYSTEM YOUR DUCT IS
> NOT LEAKING ENOUGH TO CAUSE A PROBLEM BUT ALL DUCT SHOULD BE SEALED
> AGAINST ANY LEAKAGE WITH DUCT SEALER I DO NOT KNOW IF B&B DID THIS I WOULD
> HOPE THEY DID. AGAIN IF SOME ONE COMES UP WITH SOME THING I WILL BE GAD TO
> COME OVER AND TALK WITH THEM.
> SCOTT
>

Thank you Dash for your help
rhblake57@comcast.net


>

Originally posted by dash
When it warms up,check the temperature drop,in and out of the air handler,and post it on this site.

My guess is the TXV was overheated and damaged when the system was installed.It is in the air handler,you could look to see if the bulb is attached to the suction line.

[lcimpala65]

I have to ask: what do you expect to achieve by continuing to post here? A lot of the techs on this site have given you all kinds of things to "check". Not one of them said you actually have a problem, some said they "think" it should do better, but this is based on what YOU are telling them. They have no way of knowing if what you percieve as happening is actually happening or not. Now these techs on this site are very knowledgable, can they fix your system for you? NO they can't. All they can do is give you , a bunch of check this and that, all of which your installing contractor could have already checked.You base your humidity readings on your own equipment which you say is calibrated. Calibrated by whom? how often? It is taken to a calibration lab every six months? I doubt it. I still say you don't have a problem. It makes NO sense at all that a contractor would ignore you UNLESS he has TRIED to please you and has found that there is NO pleasing you. Just a side note congrats on your years as a salesman. But to be fair, cookware won't come close to the trouble a homeowner can dream up about his heating and air system. I'll tell you what, have your contractor come over and run a PSYCHROMETRIC analysis on your system, it will tell you exactly how much cooling you are getting and exactly how much humidity is being removed from the air. If the analysis shows your system to be performing poorly than you have something to complain about. If it shows that your 2.5 Ton is doing all it can do then thats it. If it shows a problem then the contractor should fix it, or explain why it can't be fixed without more of your money fixing it. Good luck.

[Edited by lcimpala65 on 03-29-2005 at 07:16 AM]

[Carnak]

Originally posted by rhblake57
To Icimpala65 3-27-05


While not everyone will be happy at 40 to 45 percent, I was.

My system last summer never got below 50 percent and was often 55 percent.

You posted 48% previously and that is below 50.

What were you measuring the humidity with on the old system when you were claiming 38% humidity?

38 sounds unrealistic to me.

[docholiday]

amazing... simply amazing.