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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,320
    Can you post the mod number of both the outdoor, and indoor unit.

    The rep may have been from Bryant, or the distributor.

    You charge may not be right and could cause the humidity to be high.

    The new system is a higher seer, and as such does not remove as much humidity as your old system, that was (guessing here) about 7 seer.

    When the unit runs, does it seem to blow more air then the old unit did.
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    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  2. #15
    Please give specifics on model # on airhandler.
    I am assuming you DO have variable speed w/super dehumidification options if your system is 12 seer.
    If you do, your board selector options are not set properly.
    Are you utilizing the thermidistat control?
    I have installed and dialed in a bunch of these premium systems and I know that if they are set up properly, they will remove at least 30% more humidity than a standard system.
    By the way,the % humidity level you have described falls directly in the desirable range on a psychometric chart comfort envelope.
    Any duct leakage? Infiltration air? Something has been altered or changed during installation or else the comfort selector board is not set up as it should be.
    Forget about the equipment you keep comparing.
    The 34 year old American Standard was more than likely a 10 seer system at best with nothing that would provide better dehumidification than a Bryant 12 seer with variable speed, TXV and dehumidification options.

    [Edited by chillbilly on 03-27-2005 at 03:25 PM]

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    West TN
    Posts
    983
    Going to put several replies together in one... so bear with me...

    __________________________________________________ ___

    I'm curious about how air tight your duct actually is.
    Especially feeling cold air coming out of your filter grille in the winter.

    TEST #1
    Do this test at your own risk.
    I'm not familiar with your duct system nor your equipment.
    Damage could result!!! (Could collapse flex/ductboard, could cause an ECM motor to fail, air leak near blown in insulation could suck in an enourmous amount of junk into the duct system, etc etc)

    Turn stat's system switch OFF.
    Turn stat's FAN switch ON.
    Go to a vent, get an idea of how hard it is blowing.
    Put a plastic bag over the return grille where no air is being pulled into the system.
    Go to the vent you have a reference from, and feel for any air blowing out. You 'might' feel a very very small amount, but you should not feel anything dramatic.
    (I would prefer to use a meter to measure the air speed coming out.)

    TEST #2
    If you have Gas Heat, gather and post the following info...
    BTUH rating of furnace.
    Return Temperature
    Supply Temperature.
    Both temps have to be taken at the same time.
    Allow the unit to run for 5 to 10 minutes
    Get supply temp at a vent close to the equipment.
    If you have floor grilles, put a grille up and fix the thermometer in the center of the airstream below the floor level. If you have ceiling grilles, then put the thermometer into the grille. (need to get temp of air just before it leaves grille, any temp measured at the 'face' of the grille will be inaccurate due to air entrainment)



    __________________________________________________ ____


    As stated by others, your humidity sounds like its in the correct range already.
    Here's a pic I found showing the range you'd wanna shoot for (click the link and scroll down)
    http://www.coolmyhome.com/Pictures/o...t_humidity.htm

    __________________________________________________ ________

    I'm wondering if your old unit did not have a prob with the airflow and was running too slow resulting in taking out too much humidity. Did your old unit freeze up from time to time? How did your old unit finally fail? Did the heat exchanger fail? Did you have to replace limit switches? Gimme some history.
    __________________________________________________ ____

    Does your dryer vent properly outside?
    Are the pipes coming apart under the house?
    Is the pipe coming loose from the back of the dryer?
    Have you noticed an increase in dust lately?

    __________________________________________________ _____

    You mentioned you changed fan speeds...
    how did you do this?
    Is this an ECM motor with dip switches? or did you move some wires around on a board?

    __________________________________________________ _____

    Did you get a new stat with your new unit?
    If so... forget the number you have in your mind as to what comfort level should be.... especially if you went from a mechanical stat to a digital stat.
    The old mechanicals aren't known for their accuracy.
    You might have had it set on 74 but the true temp might have been 72 or 78... there could have been a difference between what the true temp was compared to what you had it set for.
    I can't count how many little old lady's I've run across that have gotten so mixed up about that.
    (summer time example) "But my old thermostat felt good when I had it set for 68. It never felt this cold in here with the old thermostat. And it never froze the unit up either. I dont' know... 75 sounds awefull hot"

    __________________________________________________ ______

    How airtight would you rate your supply ducts?
    A supply leak can be potentially worse than a return air leak.

    If you put a box fan in a window and blow air outside, does it pull in air from whereever it can?
    All the air that leaves the house must be replaced by air from outside.

    Let me exagerate to bring out my point....
    Remove your supply duct from your unit in the attic.
    Your return is sucking air into the unit and basicly blowing it outside.
    The house runs out of air and sucks in air through the easiest places it can...
    Pull down stair cases, recessed lighting, dryer vents, cracks around windows, wall recepticles, etc

    There is no way to rate which one is worse comparing return air leaks with supply air leaks... both are really bad period.

    A return air leak in an attic can cause the temp of your cooling coil to raise above the dew point, causing the unit not to be able to remove humidity.

    __________________________________________________ __

    Whew.... I can think of all sorts of other possibilities....

    In the end, your best course of action...
    Get a second opinion.







    Extend to others the grace that God has given you.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    14

    Poor humidity on HVAC

    Can you post the mod number of both the outdoor, and indoor unit.

    The rep may have been from Bryant, or the distributor.

    You charge may not be right and could cause the humidity to be high.

    The new system is a higher seer, and as such does not remove as much humidity as your old system, that was (guessing here) about 7 seer.

    When the unit runs, does it seem to blow more air then the old unit did.
    __________________
    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

    To Beenthere 3-27-05

    Condenser Model #552anx030000
    coil-fan Model #xf4bnf030000

    Bryant claims pressures are right and won't measure superheat and supercool. They blow it away as useless and say they don't have tools to measure them, as they are a waste of money.

    New system should be as good or better at dehumidification unless "new is worse than old" in technology.

    The new 2.5 ton air handler does not blow more air the the old 2.5 ton coil unit.

    PS: I'm not very adept at computers so I'm not sure I'm relaying these answers in the right format.

    rhblake57@comcast.net

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    340

    Re: Poor humidity on HVAC

    Originally posted by rhblake57
    Bryant claims pressures are right and won't measure superheat and supercool. They blow it away as useless and say they don't have tools to measure them, as they are a waste of money.
    Uh oh. Your dealer has a problem. They are inept, or worse.

    Call Bryant national customer service at (800) 428-4326 and explain your concerns. Tell the rep what your dealer told you (above). Ask them to send a factory representative out to evaluate your system.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    257
    Make sure that the entire duct system is 100% airtite. An easy way to check this if you just happen to smoke, (Service Techs don't ever do this at a clients home) is to turn the system on go to a window or door and crack it slightly, light a cigarette and observe what the smoke does. If it is blown outward check for leakage in the returns, if it is sucked inward check for supply leakage. Both will cause humidity problems. This must be done on a day with no wind. A candle flame will work just as well but be careful. I have also used HVAC smoke candles but from the outside of the home.

    I also wonder if the sensing bulb for the TXV is correctly installed. Is it strapped tightly to the suction line? and with the brass straps that came with the kit? or just strapped on with wire ties? Is the sensing bulb properly placed on the suction line. Any position from 2 to 4 or 10 to 8 oclock will work fine. If it is mounted to the top or bottom of the suction line it may have problems sensing the temperature of the suction line. Finally is the suction line and sensing bulb properly insulated? If attic air temps can get at the suction line before the sensing bulb or at the sensing bulb there will be problems.

    Checking to make sure that system superheat is correct should show these problems.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Cullman Alabama,
    Posts
    90

    Hmm

    Have we not all encountered this in the past? The humidity in the house is fine. The fact that the humidity OUTSIDE the home is 70% or higher is not relevant, the five gallon bucket story isn't relevant, what is relevant is the actual humidity level in the home,period. The equipment is maintaining proper humidity levels IN the home, the levels are industry standard, the unit is cooling the home satisfactorily; what else do we expect the equipment to do?. This gent wants something fixed that isn't broke. It's the same old story, it doesn't work as good as the junk he had replaced, and he bases this on what? how many drops of condensate he sees flow out of the air handler. Give me a break!! Older folks never can adjust to the newer technology used in modern heating and air equipment, his contractor and Bryant has given up on him because there is NO problem. You can't fix what isn't broke. Now I know mister home owner you will be mad about this post, but trust me NO ONE on this site is going to fix this for you, or give you a magic bullet piece of info that you can use against your contractor. The fact is you don't have a problem.

  8. #21
    What type of filter is on the unit ? is it the same as before ?

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Suppy NC
    Posts
    4,513
    your humidity level is with in range
    but with out a proper subcool and super heat how can anyone say the system is operating properly
    if the refrigerant is not ajusted properly to much or to little the coil might cool but not dehumidify properly
    if the coil has a restriction in it or the txv asuming it has one is faulty same thing realy cant posibly know what is going on inside the system with out subcool or superheat readings. if it has an orfice and not txv you are not getting full rating on seer. also if orfice is not the right size again wont operate properly.
    you stated cold air from registers in winter and you close them off. if the pipe runs condensated during this time and have water in them from condensating in the winter is could cause this problem also
    i have seen a lot of overhead systems condensate in cold wheather and fill up the flex runs going to the outlets with water. have even seen water dripping from some to and replaced the flex runs and gave the coustomers blank offs for the returns to stop the draft in the winter
    it sounds like it might be time to get a second opinion on your system. it might cost a few dolars for someone to came out and check it but it might be worth while and the expense in the long run

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    14
    To Golan 3-27-05

    Thank for your suggestions re smoke candles.
    I bought smoke candles last summer and used them in the attic near the return duct, with the system running, and found that smoke was brought into the house from the smoke in the attic. It was not a lot of smoke. Just enough to smell in the living area. I then wrapped the return in 8mil plastic.

    I told the Bryant dealer/distributer engineer and my contractor this when they came to the house last July. They completely ignored my concern as being of no importance.

    Last July when I questioned the Bryant dealer as to whether there was a way to measure the line temps at the condenser and coil he and the contractor said definitely no. Both said if pressures were right there can't be any problem, period!

    Finally on my third visit in Bryant dealers office, I told him, flat out, "I believe you are not telling me the truth as I have talked with another brand's dealer/distributer and he told me about sub cool and super heat temps".

    He grudgingly said yes but they are irrelevant, if the pressure is right.

    He also insisted that there is no way to measure superheat at the coil as there are no pistons in the TXV valve in the Bryant FX4BNF030000 2.5 ton Puron fan coil that I have.

    This visit with the Bryant dealer/distributer was prior to my finding this great opportunity to communicate directly with other experts about HVAC about problems.

    Since July 2004, I have had several talks with Bryant Customer service in Syracuse NY. The head of customer service has told me twice that she could offer no help except to tell me to contact the local Bryant distributer for info re my concerns. It's sort of like asking my contractor for mercy!

    Your post notes that there should be a "sensing bulb" strapped to the suction line properly and insulated. And that "if attic temps get to the suction line before or at the sensing bulb then I will have problems".

    The Bryant dealer didn't part with that bit of info.

    One Poster suggests that because I am "an old man" I will never be satisfied. I probably couldn't whip him in a fair fight, but I would say my brain would be a very equal opponent to his. I learn very quickly thanks to all the positive help that I'm getting on this thread. Older is always better, especially in cheese and wine!

    Thanks Golan


    Originally posted by golan37
    Make sure that the entire duct system is 100% airtite. An easy way to check this if you just happen to smoke, (Service Techs don't ever do this at a clients home) is to turn the system on go to a window or door and crack it slightly, light a cigarette and observe what the smoke does. If it is blown outward check for leakage in the returns, if it is sucked inward check for supply leakage. Both will cause humidity problems. This must be done on a day with no wind. A candle flame will work just as well but be careful. I have also used HVAC smoke candles but from the outside of the home.

    I also wonder if the sensing bulb for the TXV is correctly installed. Is it strapped tightly to the suction line? and with the brass straps that came with the kit? or just strapped on with wire ties? Is the sensing bulb properly placed on the suction line. Any position from 2 to 4 or 10 to 8 oclock will work fine. If it is mounted to the top or bottom of the suction line it may have problems sensing the temperature of the suction line. Finally is the suction line and sensing bulb properly insulated? If attic air temps can get at the suction line before the sensing bulb or at the sensing bulb there will be problems.

    Checking to make sure that system superheat is correct should show these problems.

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    14
    To Tinknocker 3-27-05

    Thanks for the thoughts. I believe that u bend in the condensate pipe in the attic was probably filled with frozen water in January and February here in New England but next winter to be certain I will put some water in in December.

    You are one of several who have added to my confidence that sub cool and super heat tests are absolutely neccessary.

    Is it true that the test for sub cool-super heat can not be done until the outside temp reaches 70 degrees and some humidity?

    The Bryant dealer/distributer assures me that the testing equipment for sub cool-super heat have only been on the market for six months. And that nobody has bought one from his company,F W Webb, as contractors are not going to spend 2 or 3 hundred dollars for a tool that is not neccessary and redundant. I asked if he owned one, since he was an engineer resposible for helping with customer problems. He did not.

    Thanks again rhblake57@comcast.net


    Originally posted by tinknocker service tech
    your humidity level is with in range
    but with out a proper subcool and super heat how can anyone say the system is operating properly
    if the refrigerant is not ajusted properly to much or to little the coil might cool but not dehumidify properly
    if the coil has a restriction in it or the txv asuming it has one is faulty same thing realy cant posibly know what is going on inside the system with out subcool or superheat readings. if it has an orfice and not txv you are not getting full rating on seer. also if orfice is not the right size again wont operate properly.
    you stated cold air from registers in winter and you close them off. if the pipe runs condensated during this time and have water in them from condensating in the winter is could cause this problem also
    i have seen a lot of overhead systems condensate in cold wheather and fill up the flex runs going to the outlets with water. have even seen water dripping from some to and replaced the flex runs and gave the coustomers blank offs for the returns to stop the draft in the winter
    it sounds like it might be time to get a second opinion on your system. it might cost a few dolars for someone to came out and check it but it might be worth while and the expense in the long run

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    14
    To Fat Eddy 3-27-05

    The filter is at the return grill in the living area hallway and is the same size as before.

    Thanks for your interest rhblake57@comcast.net



    Originally posted by fat eddy
    What type of filter is on the unit ? is it the same as before ?

  13. #26
    Superheat/subcooling should have been measured during startup as well as airflow,air leakage, amp draws, delta T, etc, etc.
    I have a hard time understanding how those basic things were not checked if indeed, they weren't.
    If your indoor humidity level is within the desired range, and the s/a vs r/a temp difference is within spec, the system may be doing exactly what is required.

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