QUESTIONS REGARDING THE REPLACEMENT OF AN EXISTING SYSTEM

[kevin57]

HI FOLKS:

I CURRENTLY OWN A HOME WITH (1) 5 TON YORK 9 SEER SYSTEM AND (1) 3.5 TON YORK 9 SEER SYSTEM. 5 TON UNIT IS DEAD AND NEEDS TO BE REPLACED AND 3.5 TON IS 14 YEARS OLD AND PROBABLY ON BORROWED TIME. HOUSE IS R38 CEILING AND R19 WALLS. BIG BIG CONSIDERATION...ALTHOUGH LOCATED ON THE COAST IN CONNECTICUT WHERE HIGH TEMPERATURES ARE 90 TO 95 DEGREES, ENERGY COSTS ARE 15 CENTS A KWHR IN SUMMER AND WE ONLY HAVE THIS ONE TIME TO FIX THE ENERGY EFFICIENCY PROBLEM.

WE HAVE LOOKED AT 14 SEER (11 EER) UNITS ...BY THE WAY, I WAS STUNNED TO FIND THAT SEER RATINGS ARE ARRIVED AT USING AN 82 DEGREE OUTSIDE AMBIENT TEMPERATURE AND THAT AT 95 DEGREES, THE UNITS PULL 15% MORE POWER, RESULTING IN 12.17 EFFECTIVE SEER. NONE OF OUR A/C GUYS EVER TOLD US THIS.

HAVING SAID ALL OF THIS, WE ARE CONSIDERING EITHER A GAS FIRED RESIDENTIAL A/C (PROPANE IS AVAILABLE), OR A WATER COOLED ELECTRIC CONDENSING UNIT MADE BY FREUS THAT HAS AN 18 EER (22 SEER EQUIVALENT ROUGHLY).

IN ADDITION, 2 THINGS TO BEAR IN MIND..1) OUR ELECTIC BILLS ARE OUTRAGEOUS IN THE SUMMER (CT SUCKS) AND 2) WE ONLY HAVE THIS ONE TIME TO GET IT RIGHT...ALSO FREUS ALLOWS YOU TO PLACE UP TO THREE INDEPENDENT COMPRESSORS WITHIN THEIR WATER COOLED CONDENSER (UP TO 10 TONS) WHICH IS ALSO ADVANTAGEOUS AS WE CAN GET RID OF ONE CONDENSING UNIT

ANY HELPFUL OPINIONS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED. THANKS

KEVIN

[Edited by kevin57 on 03-20-2005 at 03:58 PM]

[wormy]

Bit of advice....

ALL CAPS is considered rude on the internet (chat rooms, forums, etc)
It is equivelant to YELLING AT SOMEONE

Most people see ALL CAPS and just skip the post altogether.

[kevin57]

THANKS WORMY...EASIER FOR A TYPIST WHO HAS NO HANDS...YOU SEE...I'M DISABLED AND USE A SPECIAL APPLIANCE FOR TYPING AND IT'S EITHER CAPITALS OR NOTHING...I THINK THAT THE CONTEXT OF THE MESSAGE WOULD INDICATE THAT I'M NOT YELLING..

...ANY OTHER HELPFUL ADVISE...ESPECIALLY RELATED TO A/C WOULD REALLY BE APPRECIATED

[Edited by kevin57 on 03-20-2005 at 04:57 PM]

[duc dowg]

lose the caps lol

[kevin57]

DUC...MY PRIOR EMAILED RESPONSE WOULD ALSO APPLY TO YOUR EMAIL..BUT THANKS

[duc dowg]

you wont get much help being an $ss

[kevin57]

ACTUALLY...MY DISABILITY IS AN UNFORTUNATE ACCIDENT AS A RESULT OF VIETNAM...THANK YOU FOR YOUR TRUELY ENLIGHTENED APPROACH TO AMERICANS WITH A DISABILITY DUC

[duc dowg]

that has nothing to do with the caps

[duc dowg]

Originally posted by kevin57
THANKS WORMY...EASIER FOR A TYPIST WHO HAS NO HANDS...YOU SEE...I'M DISABLED AND USE A SPECIAL APPLIANCE FOR TYPING AND IT'S EITHER CAPITALS OR NOTHING...I THINK THAT THE CONTEXT OF THE MESSAGE WOULD INDICATE THAT I'M NOT YELLING..

...ANY OTHER HELPFUL ADVISE...ESPECIALLY RELATED TO A/C WOULD REALLY BE APPRECIATED

[Edited by kevin57 on 03-20-2005 at 04:57 PM]

sorry i didnt see this

[kevin57]

NO INSULT TAKEN...I TEND TO RUN INTO A LOT OF FOLKS THAT AREN'T VERY TOLERENT OF DISABLED INDIVIDUALS...

...JUST REMEMBER THAT MY SACRIFIC ENABLES YOU TO FREELY WRITE AND SPEAK YOU MIND IN THIS GREAT DEMOCRACY..HAVE A GREAT DAY AND I REALLY DO MEAN THAT

[johnsp]

8.5 tons for one house in the North East? Big house. How will the water cooling work? If I were you, I'd look at the City Multi system from Mitsibushi (www.mrslim.com) 6 tons and can provide many zones which will probably save you more in the long run. Propane might be cheaper in the summer, but it's still a very expensive fuel.

[framehvac]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by duc dowg
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by kevin57
[B]THANKS WORMY...EASIER FOR A TYPIST WHO HAS NO HANDS...YOU SEE...I'M DISABLED AND USE A SPECIAL APPLIANCE FOR TYPING AND IT'S EITHER CAPITALS OR NOTHING...I THINK THAT THE CONTEXT OF THE MESSAGE WOULD INDICATE THAT I'M NOT YELLING..

...ANY OTHER HELPFUL ADVISE...ESPECIALLY RELATED TO A/C WOULD REALLY BE APPRECIATED

[Edited by framehvac on 03-20-2005 at 05:44 PM]

[duc dowg]

thanks frame and kevin for what you have done

[kevin57]

NO PROBLEM DUC...

...HI JOHNSP...YES THE HOUSE IS 5200 SQUARE FEET / 10 FT CEILINGS WITH TWO ZONES BUT THE POWER COSTS IN CT IN THE SUMMER OF 15 CENTS PER KWH ARE OUT OF SIGHT RESULTING IN $700 POWER BILLS...FREUS USES YOUR STANDARD CONDENSER, BUT INSTEAD OF RELYING ON AIR BEING SUCKED THROUGH COILS TO COOL AND CONDENSE THE R-22, THEY HAVE AN INTERNAL WATER BATH...NATURALLY..WITH WATER MOLECULE MORE HIGHLY CONDENSED THEN AIR MOLUCLES, THE WATER CAN REMOVE 3500 TIMES MORE HEAT THEN AIR...THE OTHER GREAT THING ABOUT WATER COOLED CONDENSERS IS THAT AS THE AIR TEMPERATURE GOES UP, THE SEER (OR EER IN WATER COOLED CASES) DOESN'T GO DOWN.

REMEMBER, WITH AIR COOLED SYSTEMS, AS THE TEMPERATURE GRADIENT BETWEEN OUTSIDE AIR AND THE FREON RUNNING THROUGH THE CONDENSER SHRINKS, THE SEER RATING DROPS. SEER TEST RATINGS USE A OUTSIDE AMBIENT TEMPERATURE OF 82 DEGREES TO DEVELOP THE ENERGY RATING...WHEN A 14 SEER UNIT IS RUN IN OUTSIDE TEMPS OF 95 DEGREES, THE SEER DROPS TOP 12.17 AND AT 115 DEGREES OUTSIDE TEMP, THE SEER DROPS TO ABOUT 10.25...THAT'S WHY FOLKS IN THE SOUTHWEST USE WATER COOLED CONDENSERS...BASICALLY, THESE WATER COOLED UNITS HAVE AN EER OF 18 AND ROUGHLY A SEER OF 21 OR 22...

THE OTHER OPTION MIGHT BE A GAS FIRED CONDENSER...PROPANE COSTS THIS YEAR ARE 1.75 PER GALLON SO I WAS WONDERING IF ANYONE HAD ANY EXPERIENCE WITH EITHER OF THESE SYSTEMS...WILL CALL FREUS TOMORROW OF COURSE BUT THOUGHT SOMEONE HERE MIGHT HAVE SOPME EXPERIENCE...

[wyounger]

Originally posted by kevin57

REMEMBER, WITH AIR COOLED SYSTEMS, AS THE TEMPERATURE GRADIENT BETWEEN OUTSIDE AIR AND THE FREON RUNNING THROUGH THE CONDENSER SHRINKS, THE SEER RATING DROPS. SEER TEST RATINGS USE A OUTSIDE AMBIENT TEMPERATURE OF 82 DEGREES TO DEVELOP THE ENERGY RATING...WHEN A 14 SEER UNIT IS RUN IN OUTSIDE TEMPS OF 95 DEGREES, THE SEER DROPS TOP 12.17 AND AT 115 DEGREES OUTSIDE TEMP, THE SEER DROPS TO ABOUT 10.25...THAT'S WHY FOLKS IN THE SOUTHWEST USE WATER COOLED CONDENSERS...BASICALLY, THESE WATER COOLED UNITS HAVE AN EER OF 18 AND ROUGHLY A SEER OF 21 OR 22...

SEER considers efficiency throughout cooling season, not just during the hottest summer afternoons. At 95 degrees, we're talking about EER. Higher SEER units also tend to have higher EERs, but this isn't a perfect correlation. This has always been true... so your 9 SEER systems probably run at an EER of about 7 in hot days.

Freus is interesting, but if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't touch one. See if you can find an experienced Freus technician in CT before you even think about buying one. It seems awfully risky to go with this technology and then face the risk that you can't keep it working with local know-how. People in the southwest use water cooled condensers (or evaporative coolers) because they are particularly effective in the very dry conditions they have there. Even still, Freus is by no means common, even in the desert southwest. The advantage of evaporative techniques falls way off when you get into humid ambient conditions, though, so you're going to see even less of that used outside of the desert.

If you really want to save on operating cost, you'd be better off considering geothermal. Then you could save on both heating and cooling costs. It's very expensive to install, but with that much space and those utility rates, it will pay for itself. Good geothermal techs are probably scarce in CT, but you're far more likely to find somebody to work on geothermal there than an evaporatively cooled system.

Also don't forget that you can often do yourself good service economically by putting money towards other energy improvements (windows, insulation) that reduce your need for heating and cooling in the first place- before you assume that you need the highest efficiency equipment available. And absolutely get a serious load calculation done, or use the HVAC-Calc software to do your own, to make sure that you're getting the right sized equipment. Oversized equipment will absolutely never achieve its rated efficiency, yet many contractors will use rules of thumb instead of serious math to guesstimate what size of equipment they'll use. From my experience in buying central cooling systems, the guesstimators will routinely try to sell AC systems 50% bigger than the correct size. This results in impaired humidity control and pitiful efficiency. They typically do about the same thing with furnace sizing, although the results of furnace oversizing aren't (quite) as bad.

I haven't run the numbers lately, but gas air conditioning isn't economical in the southwest anymore (it used to be common there), and their electric rates are on the high side, too. I doubt that it will prove cost effective in CT, especially with propane instead of natural gas. If it were cost effective, it would be more common!

Finally, don't forget that it's not cheap to heat and cool 5000 square feet anywhere, regardless of utility rates and equipment efficiency. The careful setup and use of zoning (either through zone control, separate systems, or hybrids like some mini-splits) can save money by reducing how much space conditioning you put into unoccupied spaces, but even still, it's a lot of space.

Hope that helps.

[Edited by wyounger on 03-21-2005 at 09:48 AM]

[johnsp]

I agree 100%. Water cooled and gas fired condensers are only seen in very large commercial installs. Buildings get special gas rates for AC to save on electricity demand for the utility. You won't get this for a residential home. Use of city water is not code in NYC for cooling, you must recirculate and cool the water with a fan forced tower which uses power also. Again this was done to locate condensers inside a building without outdoor access to air cooling more so then for efficency.

Anyone would question why a 5000 sq ft house needs 8.5 tons of cooling in CT. We need AC 3 months of the year and maybe 1 week of 95° days. Humidity is the killer. Insulate the envelope and zone it well for comfort and you'll keep humidity at bay with lower operating and initial system install costs.

[wormy]

Geothermal is very very nice. The biggest drawbacks are the initial investment being rather high, and being able to dig a well for the water loop.

Here's a link that will get you started in the right direction....
http://www.geoexchange.org/about/activities_ny.htm

NY is the closest I could find to you.

Here's another site you can get info from
(not sure of the brand name(haven't worked on many geothermals here), I thought its a nice site to get info from though.
http://www.geocomfort.com/?page=home

There aren't very many geothermal's around here.
I've worked on one where I asked the homeowner how his utiilities are.
His house is a rather large 4 bedroom two story.
His light bill is never over a hundred dollars.
He got a bill one time for over 350 bucks. He called the light company out and cussed em up and down.
After he slammed the phone down he looked at the bill only to realize it was his next door neighbors. The postman got the mailboxes mixed up. Both houses are about the same size.

A geothermal heat pump might work real well for you there too, not only saving electricity in the summer, but also save in the winter. A geothermal heat pump's not effected by outside temps as much as air exchange.

Johnsp mentioned high humidity for you guys in the summer.
Consider a variable speed blower on your unit also.
This will allow the equipment to remove more humidity during a run cycle.

Get your duct system evaluated also. Air leaks on any system sucks (literally.... whatever air leaks out of your ducts to outside... the same amount of air gets 'sucked' back into the house from where ever it can... i.e. pull down stairs, light fixtures, etc)

ON a side note....
might help if you start off your posts with...
"Excuse the caps, special keyboard types all caps"

ALSO on another note....
I'm most appreciative of your service for our country.

There is a memorial in our little town that lists soldiers who've laid down their lives for our country. It lists names who've faught in WW1, WW2 (section for pacific and section for europe), Korea, and Vietnam.
Across the top are the words....
"They've given their today for your tomorrow"

Although your name may not be upon a wall giving you gratitude for your service. THere are many that proudly stand for the soldiers and our liberty in which they protect.







[Edited by wormy on 03-21-2005 at 05:24 PM]

[beenthere]

Wheres the water going to come from.
If from a well, then consider geothermo heat pumps.

[wormy]

Did a bit more digging....
found this contractor in connecticut

http://www.nutmegmechanical.com/geo.htm

[kevin57]

HI FOLKS (SPECIAL KEYBOARD EQUIPMENT ONLY TYPES CAPS)

...THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH FOR ALL OF YOUR SUGGESTIONS AND ESPECIALLY TO YOU WORMY FOR YOUR VERY KIND WORDS....

...I'M STARTING TO GET THE FEELING THAT I'M JUST A CHEAP CONNECTICUT YANKEE (WHO HATES THE LOCAL INEFFICIENT UTILITY)..THE HOUSE IS 14 YEARS OLD, WITH R38 IN THE CEILIINGS AND R19 IN 2X6 WALLS WITH 5200 SQ FT AND 10' CEILINGS. DOORS AND WINDOWS ARE MARVIN DOUBLE INSULATED SO ENVELOPE IS REALLY TIGHT...FAILED TO MENTION THAT WE HAVE OIL FIRED BASEBOARD HEAT (SEPERATE BOILER) WHICH ACTUALLY IS PRETTY EFFICIENT IN THAT IT BURNS BETWEEN 1600 AND 2600 GALLONS OF FUEL A YEAR...NORMALLY, IN ORDER TO KEEP THE A/C BILLS TO $350 PER MONTH WE SET THE A/C TO 78 AND THEN USE ROOM FANS TO MOVE THE AIR AROUND WHICH WORKS...

I'LL LOOK INTO THE GEOTHERMAL...WE DO HAVE MUNICIPAL WATER SUPPLY SO WATER IS NOT A PROBLEM...WERE WE WILL RUN INTO PROBLEMS IS WITH THE UNDERGROUND SYSTEMS..ALTHOUGH WE HAVE 2.25 ACRES OF PROPERTY...1.5 ACRES IS CONSERVATION LAND AND THE OTHER .75 IS TIED DOWN WITH A LARGE LEACHING FIELD + SEPTIC, HUGE DRYWELL SYSTEM TO REINJECT ROOF WATER INTO GROUND WITH ZERO RUNOFF, UNDERGROUND UTILITIES ETC ETC. MY GUESS IS THAT WE WOULD NEED A SHOEHORN TO GET A GEO SYSTEM IN BUT IT'S WORTH A LOOK AT.

ALSO, I SHARE YOUR CONCERN ABOUT A FREUS SYSTEM LOCATED IN CONNECTICUT..HATE TO BE THE FIRST ONE TO TRY IT AND FAIL! I'LL CHECK WITH FREUS AND SEE WHAT THEIR RESPONSE IS THEN I'LL POST IT FYI BUT I HAVE THE FEELING THAT WE MAY END UP JUST BUCKING UP FOR A 14 SEER, HIGH EER WITH VARIABLE SPEED BLOWER AND LIVE WITH IT...STILL BEATS 9 SEER 7 EER RIGHT?!

ALSO THANKS WYOUNGER FOR THE SEER /EER COMMENT...I UNDERSTOOD THE TEMPERATURE DIFFERENTIAL BETWEEN THE TWO (82 VS 95 DEGREES) BUT I NEVER PUT TOGETHER THE SIMPLE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE TWO...EER IS A GOOD BENCHMARK TO USE TO SIMULATE THE POWER CONSUMPTION THAT THE UNIT USES AT THE HOTTEST PART OF THE DAY AND SEER FOR THE COOLER "TAILS" OF THE TEMPERATURE DISTRIBUTION...SIMPLE CONCEPT THAT WENT RIGHT OVER MY HEAD...I WAS THINKING "WHO THE HELL AIR CONDITIONS AT 82 DEGREES (A LITTLE THICK HEADED I GUESS)...I'LL LET YOU KNOW WHAT I HEAR FROM FREUS IN THE NEXT DAY OR SO

BEST REGARDS

KEVIN