Switching out AC condenser

[53fleet]

I have an energy hog condenser(3 1/2 ton) that is over 20 years old. In the summertime here in Palm Desert, CA my electric bills are over 300 dollars a month for a home of 1300 sq ft. During the hottest hours of the summer day it runs constantly and rarely shuts off. I own a rental three doors down and had the entire split system replaced last year but could not afford two systems at the same time. In the interest of saving some money, and since we rarely use our heater, my question is whether it would make any sense to replace just the condenser with a more energy efficient one, say 10 or 12 seer? If yes, would I need to replace the evap coil as well? Your professional advice would be much appreciated. Any recommendations for condenser brands?
Thank in advance for your help.

[Edited by 53fleet on 03-14-2005 at 04:12 PM]

[bornriding]

Never would I recommend replacement of any condenser without the indoor coil replacement, but especially if you are trying to get a higher efficiency system.
You will lose the effective efficiency of the condenser if the indoor coil does not match the same efficiency rating.

Also the air flow and the existing furnace has a lot to do with the actual efficiency that you will get out of any system.

How old is your furnace, if the a/c is 20 years old??

[53fleet]

The furnace is over 20 years old as well.

[framehvac]

Replace it all it will save you money in the long run.

[bornriding]

I will have to agree with 'Frame', even though I'm not a big one on just replacing systems. But if yur goin to spend the money for the a/c part, you will money ahead to replace the furnace.
And yu will ensure your higher efficiency ( even in heat)

[53fleet]

Thanks for your responses! I guess the next question is cost/benefit of 10 seer system vs. 12 seer or 13 seer?
Thanks again for your help.

[Shophound]

Originally posted by 53fleet
Thanks for your responses! I guess the next question is cost/benefit of 10 seer system vs. 12 seer or 13 seer?
Thanks again for your help.

As of January 23 next year, the lower SEER units will no longer be made and will no longer be available for sale once existing stocks are depleted. Parts for lower SEER units will still be available, but as manufacturers ramp up for the 13 SEER mandate, they are likely to produce less replacement components (such as compressors and coils) for lower SEER equipment.

Concurrent with this is the ongoing phase-out of Freon 22 refrigerants. Much if not most of the 13 SEER equipment will use R410A, which for better or worse appears to be here to stay as the replacement for R22. Although R22 will not stop being produced until 2020, there are mandated reductions in R22 production up to that year. That means this refrigerant will only become more expensive as it becomes less available, with an ongoing reduction of R410A in price as it becomes more widely used.
Also, no equipment using R22 can be manufactured past 2010.

You might get a price break on 10 SEER equipment now, but if you plan to remain in your home for some time, the 13 SEER with R410A seems like a better investment.

[docholiday]

I agree with hound, you might also consider taking advantage of low interest rates and just have it all done now. Check with the local utility and see if they are currently offering any rebates on high efficiency equipment.

You might find the higher efficiency along with a rebate is a pretty wise investment versus doing the minimum now and having to replace it all next go around when you are closer to a fixed income.

[framehvac]

R410A, which for better or worse appears to be here to stay as the replacement for R22.

EPA said they may not be,that is 410A no one should plan on it.

[bornriding]

Personally, I don't think a system above 13 Seer is worth the money. And though the 410 system are the new 'thing', they haven't been tested enough for me to recommend them.
Besides, R-22 will be around longer than this new unit will last you, and then maybe, the next changeout you do can be with a better alternative.
I also firmly believe that once the 410 bandwagon reaches its peak, there will be several drop-in replacements for R-22, as there is now for R-12 systems ( no longer have to change over to 134A)

But, of course, this is my opinion only. And, at least on this site, I think, an unpopular opinion.

[beenthere]

Change out both now, and save on both heating and cooling.

If your area uses a/c more then heat you might benifit from 13 seer.
As far as 22 or 410a, a 13 seer is the same eff, with both gases.

[-80guru]

You may also consider instead of installing a furnace, install an airhandler with a small electric heat package. You may be better to install a heat pump. Just something to consider.

[James 3528]

You sound too poor to own rental property....move out and rent your own place where you had the unit changed out.

[tinknocker service tech]

i am not a 410a fan as of yet have been schooled on and can service it and insall it just dont trust anything new till it proves itself out. there is a drop in replacement for 22 already on the marget and it is almost the same.i was reading about it in industrie mag. think it is made by hot shot. it also can replace 410a
back to the real question yes replace the intire system if will be to your best interest in the long run. 13seer will also save you monie to run. as far as witch freon to me doesnt matter at this time r22 is still my choice till i have non. for fact once the system is installed and as long as it is done right and no leaks you should never have to ajust the charge again for the life of the unit.

[53fleet]

Re: James' reply-"too poor to own a rental"...well, all I can say is, having one son at a private university in Michigan(engineering) and one daughter starting at UC Santa Barbara in the fall...that is enough to put anyone in the poor house, but I do own our house and a rental 3 doors down from us. That said, I certainly did not get to this point by throwing money away.

Thanks, everyone, for your helpful responses. I appreciate it very much.

[Edited by 53fleet on 03-15-2005 at 11:58 PM]

[dan sw fl]

Originally posted by 53fleet
... (3 1/2 ton) ... 20 years old. In the summertime here in Palm Desert, CA my electric bills are over 300 dollars a month for a home of 1300 sq ft.

[Edited by 53fleet on 03-14-2005 at 04:12 PM]

Recommend a TRANE model 4TTR2030 with air handler TWE031E and 10kW strip heater based on 1,300 Sq. Ft.
13 SEER 2.5 ton
( or look into model XL16i during the TRANE spring incentive plan + CA utility rebates)
Your electric bills should be < ~ half.

I do not know your utility rate structure ($0.16/ kW ?) but my FP&L electric bill ( $0.09 /kW) is < $100 for May to October for an ARMSTRONG Air 3.0 ton, 10 SEER serving 1,800 Sq. Feet in Naples FL

Send me your floor plan with specific window sizes / sliding doors and tinting, if any.
Does the rear of your house face West?
2.5 ton size would have to be confirmed as appropriate for your residence and area.

Maybe adding window tinting along with TRANE model XL16i will SIGNIFICANTLY reduce tonnage required and <<< your electric bill.

E-mail me for approx. replacement cost.
RacingDan11@comcast.net

[kevin57]

DEAR FLEET53:

I AM NOT AN A/C PROFESSIONAL, BUT A FAIRLY WELL ENLIGHTENED CONSUMER AND THERE ARE A FEW THINGS YOU NEED TO CONSIDER. FIRST, DO YOU KNOW HOW TO CALCULATE THE POWER CONSUMPTION AND THUS THE SAVINGS OF THE DIFFERENT SEER UNITS? USE THIS FORMULA...1 TON = 12,000 BTUS, THUS YOUR 3.5 TON A/C HAS ROUGHLY 42,000 BTUs OF COOLING POWER...42,000 DIVIDED BY 10 SEER MEANS THAT YOUR UNIT BURNS APPROXIMATELY 4200 WATTS PER HOUR. USING THE SAME INFORMATION ABOVE, A NEW 14 SEER UNIT WILL BURN 42,000 / 14 = 3000 WATTS PER HOUR..YOU CAN THEN CALCULATE YOUR BREAKEVEN COST AND WHETHER IT MAKES SENSE TO SPEND THE EXTRA MONEY ON THE MORE EXPENSIVE 14 SEER..ALSO REMEMBER, WITH ENERGY PRICES AT 57 DOLLARS FOR A BARREL OF CRUDE OIL, ALL OF US ARE GOING TO BE PAYING A LOT MORE FOR ELECTRICITY VERY SOON.

MOST IMPORTANTLY....YOU LIVE IN A VERY HIGH TEMPERATURE SEMI ARID ENVIRONMENT...YOU NEVER INDICATED THIS, BUT ARE YOU USING WATER COOLED CONDENSING UNITS OR AIR COOLED? WATER COOLED UNITS ARE MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE EFFICIENT AND ARE SUITED TO THE SOUTHWEST UNITED STATES..SOME UNITS CARRY EERs OF 16 (WHICH WOULD GIVE THEM A SEER OF PROBABLY 19). THE DIRTY LITTLE SECRET THAT NO ONE IN THE A/C INDUSTRY EITHER KNOWS OR TALKS ABOUT, IS THAT A 14 SEER AIR COOLED CONDENSING UNIT IS ONLY EFFECTIVELY OPERATING AT 12.17 SEER AT 95 DEGREE OUTSIDE TEMPERATURE, AND ONLY ABOUT 10.25 SEET AT 115 DEGREE OUTSIDE TEMPERATURES BECAUSE AIR COOLED CONDENSERS BURN 15% MORE POWER FOR EVERY 10 TO 15 DEGREE RISE IN OUTSIDE TEMPERATURE ABOVE THE 82 DEGREE BENCHMARK USED FOR SEER CALCULATIONS....GOOD LUCK