R-22 VS A410 - Cost difference

[rocco10]

Thanks Contactor and everyone else for the comments. I am going with the 410 but not that particular contractor. I called the other contractors I'm interested in just to confirm they estimated for a 410 install - they did. What had me wondering was the guys who priced 410 from the get go were already better than the R-22 estimate and that guy wanted another G-note for the 410.

And for anyone keeping statistics, which is probably another thread, I needed 5 contractors to get 3 'good' estimates. My baseline for 'good' is the contractor made all the necessary measurements needed to run the manual J calculation. The other 2 guys sat at my kitchen table and wrote up their estimates after looking at the plates on each unit and listening to why I wanted new systems.

[contactor]

A 410-A, 12 SEER AC system, is as efficent as a R-22, 12 SEER system. The efficiency increase of R410-A isnt realized by the consumer, but by the manufacturer,in using smaller compressor design to achieve the same effect.The sealed refrigeration components have to be designed thicker as well.
I am planning R410-A training after this summer. It will be interesting to see what happens to AC sales next summer, with the 13 SEER restrictions. In our latitude, 13SEER ac/s make about as much sense as a 94% efficient furnace in Miami, FL.

[bench]

Pros and cons on R410- Slightly higher SEER ratings can be accomplished on a smaller foot print than R22, some condensors and or evap coils are getting very big.

Higher pressures and intolerance to moisture will require installer to do a better job of vac'g systems, use of nitrogen, etc - plus all R410 units probably should have in line drier standard as a safety net. Failure rates on poor installs will be high because of moisture issue. Good install no problem.

[NormChris]

Offical manufacturer warranty failure claims for R-410A have been lower as compared to R-22 warranty claims. At this point it looks like 410A equipment may be more dependable than 22 systems. It could also mean that 410 systems are mostly installed by the higher quality contractors.

[maxair]

I think 410-a is probably is like any thing else.You put
it in correctly and it will probably work fine.The problem
is like anything else I our trade no training other than
ojt.So the customer will be the one who pays for the
training on there equipment.I had a split heatpump with a
dirty indoor coil stopped up running in heat mode the
unit had a overtemp limit strapped on the discharge line
that failed to open compressor on verge of bypass pressure
very high never felt a line get that hot on a heatpump.So
when they go to leaving safeties off to cut cost like on
22 it could get ugly.

[tinknocker service tech]

lets face it 410a is here to stay
as long as the system is installed properly you shouldnt have trouble with it for a long time. at least not install related. r-22 has been in use since forever. it has proven itself and yea we all like it. 410a is new in comparision but it is proving itself all the time. being use to 22 for so long makes change hard but time has come and change happens all the time
as much as i would like to say go with r-22 system well
it is a mew ara so goo with the 410a system and you wont have to worry about r-22 for rhe life of the system
good luck and enjoy you ac
wayne

[MikeJ]

For those contractors who have installed 410A systems:

Is a five year parts and labor warranty about standard?

[mark beiser]

Originally posted by NormChris
Offical manufacturer warranty failure claims for R-410A have been lower as compared to R-22 warranty claims. At this point it looks like 410A equipment may be more dependable than 22 systems. It could also mean that 410 systems are mostly installed by the higher quality contractors.

I wouldn't put to much stock in those reports, I don't believe they reflect the reality of what is to come.

Currently, all manufacturers of R-r410a equipment, that I know of, require the installing contractor to take a class.
I'm not saying the class is some kind of magic elixir that guarantees good install practices, but it does tend to weed out the real hacks that don't want to bother with the training.
R-410a also tends to be only in the higher end equipment from a given manufacturer, so it isn't making it into many of the lowball installs.

Once R-410a is the only refrigerant, everyone will be installing it, so a much higher percentage of hacks, idiots and the ignorant will be putting it in. That is when I believe we will start seeing some real serious issues.

I'm not saying there is anything fundamentally wrong with R-410a, I happen to like it. It will make choosing a good contractor more important than ever.

IMO, the best thing about R-410a is the dedicated R-410a indoor coils and air handlers that some manufacturers are starting to build. Tranes new air handlers with the vortex blower and new coil designed for R-410a are 25-30% smaller and weigh less than the old ones. The old ones were the same as the R-22 units, just with a different TXV.
Now if they can make the outdoor units smaller, I'll be real happy. I had to set three XL19i heat pumps last week. 420ish pounds each and 50 inches tall, UNGH!

[NormChris]

Originally posted by mark beiser

Originally posted by NormChris
Offical manufacturer warranty failure claims for R-410A have been lower as compared to R-22 warranty claims. At this point it looks like 410A equipment may be more dependable than 22 systems. It could also mean that 410 systems are mostly installed by the higher quality contractors.

I wouldn't put to much stock in those reports, I don't believe they reflect the reality of what is to come.

Currently, all manufacturers of R-r410a equipment, that I know of, require the installing contractor to take a class.
I'm not saying the class is some kind of magic elixir that guarantees good install practices, but it does tend to weed out the real hacks that don't want to bother with the training.
R-410a also tends to be only in the higher end equipment from a given manufacturer, so it isn't making it into many of the lowball installs.

Once R-410a is the only refrigerant, everyone will be installing it, so a much higher percentage of hacks, idiots and the ignorant will be putting it in. That is when I believe we will start seeing some real serious issues.

I'm not saying there is anything fundamentally wrong with R-410a, I happen to like it. It will make choosing a good contractor more important than ever.

IMO, the best thing about R-410a is the dedicated R-410a indoor coils and air handlers that some manufacturers are starting to build. Tranes new air handlers with the vortex blower and new coil designed for R-410a are 25-30% smaller and weigh less than the old ones. The old ones were the same as the R-22 units, just with a different TXV.
Now if they can make the outdoor units smaller, I'll be real happy. I had to set three XL19i heat pumps last week. 420ish pounds each and 50 inches tall, UNGH!

Mark, I agree. We (I am a York factory instructor)also recognize the currently only our better contractors are installing 410 systems. For the most part, only the better contractors attend the 410 qualification classes we teach.

We also are waiting to see how the warranty numbers hold when 410 becomes the standard refrigerant and everybody is installing them. So, we are watching the warranty numbers carefully.

We have also noticed that NATE certified technicians as a general rule have lower warranty claims. We have a fair enough tracking system to get a general trend.

Norm

[berad]

I've been putting in 410 a since the beginning. You just do what you always should have done. Flow nitrogen while brazing, use driers if unit doesn't come with them, change driers if you have to open up the system, pull an honest 500 micron vacuum, leak test with nitrogen after brazing but before the vacuum pump. It's a bit more tricky when replacing a 410 a component like a service valve or something. You have to move quick to get the system closed up as soon as possible. Acid tests are important. I've always done this stuff with r-22 so moving to 410 a was no big deal. It's great stuff. I love talking to techs at the wholesale house and they are afraid of it. That makes my stock go up.

[AllTemp]

I've installed many of the 2 speed Carrier systems for the last several years without any regrets. What a great system they are, moving to R410 had it's cost but no regrets.

All recovery equipemnt is now built for the stuff and Yellow Jacket sure came out with some nice 4 port Brut Manifolds...

Charging these systems took some getting used to not being familar with the TP Charts... But follow the mfg install notes, good installation practices and your good to go!

One note:

Watch your self on the TXV make sure their rated and matched to your systems,not forgiving in additon to driers...

Did have one condenser installed in a very dusty area, near some horse corrals and feed barn. System was tripping on head pressures, pressures were at the top and I mean the top.

Only thing bothers me there is when a HO dicovers that PS and bypasses because he wants cooling... KABOOM!

[AllTemp]

Mark, I agree. We (I am a York factory instructor)also recognize the currently only our better contractors are installing 410 systems. For the most part, only the better contractors attend the 410 qualification classes we teach.

We also are waiting to see how the warranty numbers hold when 410 becomes the standard refrigerant and everybody is installing them. So, we are watching the warranty numbers carefully.

We have also noticed that NATE certified technicians as a general rule have lower warranty claims. We have a fair enough tracking system to get a general trend.

Norm [/B]

What has happend to the gas fired Heat Pump Mark, never have seen one here yet. Did they get into the market place, I know there were several locatiosn testing them , York calls it hte Triathon or something ?

[dash]

Check out http://www.410a.com

[bornriding]

My main concern with 410 systems is the development of leaks in the system, with higher pressures, I feel that leak development is posibly more prevelant. Thats why i wait to see how others are doing before I will delve into 410.
And Norm, the only contractors around here using it are the biggest ones, not the best ones. The companies that charge a lot more than I do. Doesn't mean they are better

One further question - if a refrigerant leak has developed in a 410 system, can you just recharge with refrigerant, or do you have to recover it all and charge completely again. ( question due to R-410 being zeotropic )

[Edited by bornriding on 03-20-2005 at 10:27 AM]

[bob hubbard]

There will never be a 410 system in my house ! EVER ...

[NormChris]

Originally posted by bob hubbard
There will never be a 410 system in my house ! EVER ...

Henry Ford said exactly the same thing about putting an automatic starter on his cars.

[dash]

Originally posted by bob hubbard
There will never be a 410 system in my house ! EVER ...

Yes there will be,althoughyou may not own it by then.LOL!

[beenthere]

Yes, you can just add more refrigerant with 410a when you have a leak.

As with 22, its better to find and repair the leak.