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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    St Paul, Minnesota
    Posts
    3,468
    For those contractors who have installed 410A systems:

    Is a five year parts and labor warranty about standard?

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,914
    Originally posted by NormChris
    Offical manufacturer warranty failure claims for R-410A have been lower as compared to R-22 warranty claims. At this point it looks like 410A equipment may be more dependable than 22 systems. It could also mean that 410 systems are mostly installed by the higher quality contractors.
    I wouldn't put to much stock in those reports, I don't believe they reflect the reality of what is to come.

    Currently, all manufacturers of R-r410a equipment, that I know of, require the installing contractor to take a class.
    I'm not saying the class is some kind of magic elixir that guarantees good install practices, but it does tend to weed out the real hacks that don't want to bother with the training.
    R-410a also tends to be only in the higher end equipment from a given manufacturer, so it isn't making it into many of the lowball installs.

    Once R-410a is the only refrigerant, everyone will be installing it, so a much higher percentage of hacks, idiots and the ignorant will be putting it in. That is when I believe we will start seeing some real serious issues.

    I'm not saying there is anything fundamentally wrong with R-410a, I happen to like it. It will make choosing a good contractor more important than ever.

    IMO, the best thing about R-410a is the dedicated R-410a indoor coils and air handlers that some manufacturers are starting to build. Tranes new air handlers with the vortex blower and new coil designed for R-410a are 25-30% smaller and weigh less than the old ones. The old ones were the same as the R-22 units, just with a different TXV.
    Now if they can make the outdoor units smaller, I'll be real happy. I had to set three XL19i heat pumps last week. 420ish pounds each and 50 inches tall, UNGH!
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    6,579
    Originally posted by mark beiser
    Originally posted by NormChris
    Offical manufacturer warranty failure claims for R-410A have been lower as compared to R-22 warranty claims. At this point it looks like 410A equipment may be more dependable than 22 systems. It could also mean that 410 systems are mostly installed by the higher quality contractors.
    I wouldn't put to much stock in those reports, I don't believe they reflect the reality of what is to come.

    Currently, all manufacturers of R-r410a equipment, that I know of, require the installing contractor to take a class.
    I'm not saying the class is some kind of magic elixir that guarantees good install practices, but it does tend to weed out the real hacks that don't want to bother with the training.
    R-410a also tends to be only in the higher end equipment from a given manufacturer, so it isn't making it into many of the lowball installs.

    Once R-410a is the only refrigerant, everyone will be installing it, so a much higher percentage of hacks, idiots and the ignorant will be putting it in. That is when I believe we will start seeing some real serious issues.

    I'm not saying there is anything fundamentally wrong with R-410a, I happen to like it. It will make choosing a good contractor more important than ever.

    IMO, the best thing about R-410a is the dedicated R-410a indoor coils and air handlers that some manufacturers are starting to build. Tranes new air handlers with the vortex blower and new coil designed for R-410a are 25-30% smaller and weigh less than the old ones. The old ones were the same as the R-22 units, just with a different TXV.
    Now if they can make the outdoor units smaller, I'll be real happy. I had to set three XL19i heat pumps last week. 420ish pounds each and 50 inches tall, UNGH!

    Mark, I agree. We (I am a York factory instructor)also recognize the currently only our better contractors are installing 410 systems. For the most part, only the better contractors attend the 410 qualification classes we teach.

    We also are waiting to see how the warranty numbers hold when 410 becomes the standard refrigerant and everybody is installing them. So, we are watching the warranty numbers carefully.

    We have also noticed that NATE certified technicians as a general rule have lower warranty claims. We have a fair enough tracking system to get a general trend.

    Norm

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Niantic, Illinois
    Posts
    545
    I've been putting in 410 a since the beginning. You just do what you always should have done. Flow nitrogen while brazing, use driers if unit doesn't come with them, change driers if you have to open up the system, pull an honest 500 micron vacuum, leak test with nitrogen after brazing but before the vacuum pump. It's a bit more tricky when replacing a 410 a component like a service valve or something. You have to move quick to get the system closed up as soon as possible. Acid tests are important. I've always done this stuff with r-22 so moving to 410 a was no big deal. It's great stuff. I love talking to techs at the wholesale house and they are afraid of it. That makes my stock go up.

  5. #31

    Talking Carrier TDB

    I've installed many of the 2 speed Carrier systems for the last several years without any regrets. What a great system they are, moving to R410 had it's cost but no regrets.

    All recovery equipemnt is now built for the stuff and Yellow Jacket sure came out with some nice 4 port Brut Manifolds...

    Charging these systems took some getting used to not being familar with the TP Charts... But follow the mfg install notes, good installation practices and your good to go!

    One note:

    Watch your self on the TXV make sure their rated and matched to your systems,not forgiving in additon to driers...

    Did have one condenser installed in a very dusty area, near some horse corrals and feed barn. System was tripping on head pressures, pressures were at the top and I mean the top.

    Only thing bothers me there is when a HO dicovers that PS and bypasses because he wants cooling... KABOOM!
    AllTemp Heating & Cooling

  6. #32

    What Happened...


    Mark, I agree. We (I am a York factory instructor)also recognize the currently only our better contractors are installing 410 systems. For the most part, only the better contractors attend the 410 qualification classes we teach.

    We also are waiting to see how the warranty numbers hold when 410 becomes the standard refrigerant and everybody is installing them. So, we are watching the warranty numbers carefully.

    We have also noticed that NATE certified technicians as a general rule have lower warranty claims. We have a fair enough tracking system to get a general trend.

    Norm [/B]
    What has happend to the gas fired Heat Pump Mark, never have seen one here yet. Did they get into the market place, I know there were several locatiosn testing them , York calls it hte Triathon or something ?
    AllTemp Heating & Cooling

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dothan, Al
    Posts
    3,453
    My main concern with 410 systems is the development of leaks in the system, with higher pressures, I feel that leak development is posibly more prevelant. Thats why i wait to see how others are doing before I will delve into 410.
    And Norm, the only contractors around here using it are the biggest ones, not the best ones. The companies that charge a lot more than I do. Doesn't mean they are better

    One further question - if a refrigerant leak has developed in a 410 system, can you just recharge with refrigerant, or do you have to recover it all and charge completely again. ( question due to R-410 being zeotropic )

    [Edited by bornriding on 03-20-2005 at 10:27 AM]

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    cincinnati ohio
    Posts
    2,024

    410

    There will never be a 410 system in my house ! EVER ...
    My avatar is a picture of a Goodman Silencer .....These were commonly used in Goodman country ....Photos by hvac tech ( PaysonHVAC )

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    6,579

    Re: 410

    Originally posted by bob hubbard
    There will never be a 410 system in my house ! EVER ...
    Henry Ford said exactly the same thing about putting an automatic starter on his cars.


  11. #37
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836

    Re: 410

    Originally posted by bob hubbard
    There will never be a 410 system in my house ! EVER ...
    Yes there will be,althoughyou may not own it by then.LOL!

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,117
    Yes, you can just add more refrigerant with 410a when you have a leak.

    As with 22, its better to find and repair the leak.

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    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

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