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  1. #14
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    Originally posted by git-r-dun
    Thanks for the correction guys, I'm glad I atleast threw the manual J out there because that was pretty dumb. I guess my motto is what it is because quite honestly I did think ac was the same with heat as far as efficiency and output goes. Thanx again...
    It takes a big man to admit he publicly made a mistake.
    Now how many think a 14 SEER always operates at 14 SEER?
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  2. #15
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    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
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    Originally posted by davidr
    Originally posted by git-r-dun
    Thanks for the correction guys, I'm glad I atleast threw the manual J out there because that was pretty dumb. I guess my motto is what it is because quite honestly I did think ac was the same with heat as far as efficiency and output goes. Thanx again...
    It takes a big man to admit he publicly made a mistake.
    Now how many think a 14 SEER always operates at 14 SEER?
    Think it always does,or "ever" does??LOL

  3. #16
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    Aug 2003
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    Central Kentucky
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    If it "ever" does dash it might be for a split second.
    With the laboratory setting it's rated in being just a little bit of a factor.
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  4. #17
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    Feb 2004
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    SC
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    Originally posted by beenthere
    Ask to see the load calc if they say they did one.
    If they say they don't give them out till the contract is signed, then tell them that the calcs are to far apart, and you want to see who really did one, and who is guessing.

    You can do your own, click the bulls eye at the top.

    As most of the others said, seer means nothing towards capacity.

    ================================================== ==========

    Exactly right-o-mundo. The only way to know you're putting in the proper capacity is with a heat load calc. Anything other than that is guess work...as in I guess it will work. You sure don't want to spend that kind of money on "I guess it will work".

    Capacity (tons) expresses how much heat can be moved out of the area serviced. SEER adresses what it will cost you to move that heat out of said area.
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  5. #18
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    Apr 2004
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    Originally posted by davidr
    Now how many think a 14 SEER always operates at 14 SEER?
    Is there an implication that a 10 SEER (or any other)does?

    Efficiencies are rated on the equipment at an equal condition for all models, with that said, one should look at EER, and HSPF, as well as sensible/latent ratios as well.

    It is up to the installer/servicer to ensure the unit is acheiving it's optimum efficiency and performance.

  6. #19
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    Originally posted by docholiday
    Originally posted by davidr
    Now how many think a 14 SEER always operates at 14 SEER?
    Is there an implication that a 10 SEER (or any other)does?

    Efficiencies are rated on the equipment at an equal condition for all models, with that said, one should look at EER, and HSPF, as well as sensible/latent ratios as well.

    It is up to the installer/servicer to ensure the unit is acheiving it's optimum efficiency and performance.
    Doc, manufacturers don't do the best job educating contractors that equipment efficency ratings are under ideal lab conditions.
    It can be difficult at the least to replicate those conditions in the field.

    [Edited by davidr on 03-18-2005 at 12:55 PM]
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  7. #20
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    Apr 2004
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    I understand that, thanks but its not the mfg's who invented that SEER, its merely the constant rating chosen by ARI. Unless someone wants to talk ARI into a better way af rating efficiencies, its all we got.

    I'm merely suggesting that by looking at all the ratings (SEER, EER, COP and HSPF) you get a better idea of how efficient the system is compaired to others. As I said before many models advertise high seer but they were desinged to achieve a SEER rating and outside of that the performace is not so good.

    It should also be noted that the 14 SEER probably has a few other goodies that are not efficiency related. Generally you will find pressure switches, sound blankets and other noise and comfort features you simply will not find on the basic 10 SEER system.

    High efficiency systmes can be argued any way you want, and given the minimal details often used, its difficult to determine the potential savings since for the most part, electrical usage is the only consideration for that argument. Is not comfort, relaiability worth anyting monitarily? I also submit that one should go further when selecting a system beyond efficiencies and look at comfort features such as on demand dehumidification or staging which neither have any affect on efficiency but merely offer better comfort.

    And to top that all off the quality of the installation will affect it all.

  8. #21
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    Doc,I think we are getting at the same point.
    My original question was about addressing another common misconception held by many contractors. No implications were intended.
    Some contractors make no allowance for all the variables that the equipment will be subjected to in the field.
    Thus the statement that a 14 SEER is always a 14 SEER.
    I could not agree with you more on the statement about the install affecting everything including comfort.
    Thanks for the good points.
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  9. #22
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    Apr 2004
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    I agree, I'm just tossing the conversation out there for those who may like to read it.

    Dealers should know what SEER is, and how it's rated. If a contractor claiming to be an HVAC expert doesnt know what SEER is, he is bordering being fraudulant in calling himself an expert. Its a term that has been around for quite some time and has remained unchanged.

    Also, its somewhat a moot point since there is no way to test SEER in the feild. Again, this would be an issue for ARI to address since it is their standard and test.

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    11
    HI MUDBOG:

    BEFORE I GET GOING HERE, PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT "I TYPE" IN CAPS BECAUSE I AM HANDICAPPED AND THE EQUIPMENT THAT I USE FOR COMMUNICATION ONLY OUTPUTS IN CAPS OR IT DOESN'T OUTPUT AT ALL...JUST GOT A HARD TIME WITH ANOTHER POST..SORRY..

    NOW..REGARDING YOUR QUESTION...SEER IS AN ENERGY RATING...IF YOU TAKE YOUR 4 TON A/C UNIT WHICH IN NOMINAL TERMS (NOT ACTUAL OUTPUT) IS RATED AT 4 TONS X 12,000 BTUS = 48,000 BTUS DIVIDED BY 14 SEER = 3,429 WATTS OF POWER TO OPERATE THIS UNIT...IF THIS 4 TON UNIT HAD A 10 SEER IT WOULD BURN 4,000 WATTS POWER HOUR...THUS YOU CAN MAKE YOUR OWN JUDGEMENTS ABOUT HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE TO GET PAID BACK FOR THE MORE EXPENSIVE HIGHER SEER EQUIPMENT.

    REGARDING TONNAGE..IT'S PRETTY SCARY THAT YOU HAVE SUCH A WIDE RANGE OF NUMBERS....A ROUGH (VERY ROUGH) APPROXIMATION IS ONE TON PER 500 SQUARE FEE OF LIVING SPACE...NOW REMEMBER I SAID VERY ROUGH...MORE WINDOWS, LESS INSULATION, HOTTER CLIMATE ARE ALL GOING TO IMPACT THIS AND THAT'S WHY IT REQUIRES A HEATING/COOLING ANALYSIS AS OTHERS HAVE POINTED OUT HERE...ONE LAST TID-BIT, MORE IS NOT BETTER...IF YOU PUT IN TOO LARGE OF A SYSTEM, THE UNIT WILL CYCLE ON AND OFF TOO FREQUENTLY AND AS A RESULT, WILL NOT REMOVE MUCH IN THE WAY OF HUMIDITY....HOPE THIS HELPS A LITTLE

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    11
    OH ...ALSO MUDBOG...YOU SHOULD ALSO KNOW THAT WHEN RATING A UNIT, SEER IS DETERMINED USING AN 82 DEGREE AMBIENT OUTDOOR TEMPERATURE...AT 95 DEGREES, THE EFFECTIVE SEER OF A 14 SEER UNIT IS AOBUT 12.17 AND AT 115 DEGREE OUTDOOR TEMPERATURE, IT DROPS TO ABOUT 10.00...IF YOU LIVE IN A HOTTER CLIMATE LIKE DOWN SOUTH, THE PAYBACK ON 14 SEER IS GOING TO BE MUCH MUCH FASTER THAN IN THE NORTHEAST BECAUSE A UNIT DOWN SOUTH WILL OPERATE AT LOWER EFFECTIVE SEER BECAUSE OF THE HIGH AVERAGE DAILY TEMP

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