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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
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    4H: Hot, Humid Houston H.O.
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    3,304

    What about cooling?

    Geo, I re-read your first post and want to approach from a different angle:

    >>I believe it is always better for the environment and energy to use
    >>heat transfer to heat home regardless of the upfront cost.

    Are you only thinking about heating? Are you ignoring cooling? What if anything would you intend to do about humidity removal in a hot-humid climate?

    Still think you should regret saying upfront cost does not affect the end conclusion. Nuclear power plants have always had very low fuel costs, fairly good operating and maintenance (O&M) costs, it's the capital cost which has in the past made it such a high price electricity source. In every case that capital cost must be paid off by the end of the plant life. With both nuclear plants and geothermal heating/cooling, the upfront cost is an item which deserves to be amortized over the life of the system.

    Regards -- P.Student

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    165

    Re: What about cooling?

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by perpetual_student
    [B]

    Are you only thinking about heating? Are you ignoring cooling? What if anything would you intend to do about humidity removal in a hot-humid climate?



    Perp, Im not sure what you are asking here. You size Geo units by the latent and sensible heat cooling loads just like you would any other system. Just add back up heat in areas where it wont produce enough heat. Just as you would with an ASHP. Only difference is you are using a different heat transfer medium instead of air. Schmuck

    [Edited by schmuck on 03-16-2005 at 12:17 PM]

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    4H: Hot, Humid Houston H.O.
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    3,304

    Energy, enviro, or health.

    I was trying to return to the idea that what we need is a healthy house, not tiny monthly bills. Geo did not originally mention either cooling or humidity control in his original post, which made me think these are unimportant to him.

    That may be well and good in the North where you need heating, you don't need much cooling, and humidity control means *adding* humidity rather than removing it. The pitfall is that the "best" system for energy efficiency can be actually horrible for a healthy house, especially in a hot-humid climate.

    In an ideal world, you would have previously done enough calculation and science that you know in advance how much latent and sensible capacity is needed. Would you be willing to believe even a quarter of all installs are done that way? What I am saying is connecting a theroretical question to the real world, is usually a good thing. Hence the worries that cooling and humidity control are being neglected.

    Stepping back for a moment, it would be best of all for the environment (and energy) if we did no heating or cooling whatsoever. To say that moving BTUs around via heat pump, is inherently better than burning a fuel, is an interesting proposition but I'm not ready to agree.

    Best wishes -- P.Student

    [Edited by perpetual_student on 03-16-2005 at 01:38 PM]

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    483

    Re: Energy, enviro, or health.

    Originally posted by perpetual_student

    Stepping back for a moment, it would be best of all for the environment (and energy) if we did no heating or cooling whatsoever. To say that moving BTUs around via heat pump, is inherently better than burning a fuel, is an interesting proposition but I'm not ready to agree.

    Best wishes -- P.Student

    [Edited by perpetual_student on 03-16-2005 at 01:38 PM]
    Heating and cooling have become a necessity to modern life. We use and waste far more energy in the transportation sector. Think about this for a minute, driving one person around in a 8000 pound SUV getting 12 miles/gallon? I'm not against SUV's at all, just their wasteful low gas mileage. Congress should grow some b#lls and double the fuel economy standard to 40mpg, for any vehicle, how the auto manufacturers achieve that is their bussiness. Every other energy using industry has embraced efficiency with open arms, the auto industry needs to get with the times. The argument has been made that Americans will loose jobs if they raise the fuel economy standard. Well if American auto makers won't make fuel efficient vehicles, foreign auto makers will, and with gas over $2 a gallon they will flood the U.S. market, now that is gonna cost American jobs.

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    165

    Re: Energy, enviro, or health.

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by perpetual_student
    [B]I was trying to return to the idea that what we need is a healthy house, not tiny monthly bills. Geo did not originally mention either cooling or humidity control in his original post, which made me think these are unimportant to him.

    That may be well and good in the North where you need heating, you don't need much cooling, and humidity control means *adding* humidity rather than removing it. The pitfall is that the "best" system for energy efficiency can be actually horrible for a healthy house, especially in a hot-humid climate.

    Thats absurd. A Geothermal unit removes humidity just like any other unit would. The indoor coil removes it as humidity condenses on it. Do you know what a Geothermal unit is and how it works?

    [Edited by schmuck on 03-16-2005 at 04:16 PM]

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    DFW
    Posts
    684
    sometimes you need humidity control without the cooling. Geothermal doesn't solve that problem by itself and is not the answer to all problems.

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    165
    If that were the case you would need other means of controlling humidity regardless of what kind of unit you have. I never said you could solve all your problems using Geo. I said that Geo works just like any other unit as far as the refrigeration cycle goes. Only difference is your transfer medium.

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    DFW
    Posts
    684
    Originally posted by schmuck
    If that were the case you would need other means of controlling humidity regardless of what kind of unit you have. I never said you could solve all your problems using Geo. I said that Geo works just like any other unit as far as the refrigeration cycle goes. Only difference is your transfer medium.
    It isn't that simple. For example, there are several air systems that have dual compressors to let you run at a lower capacity when that makes sense. I have not seen a Geo system (yet) with that feature. The dual compressor air system can do a better job of humidity removal than a Geo system and on the smaller compressor they are extremely efficient.

    Another factor is that it is hard enough to find a decent installer without limiting myself to only those that know how to do Geo and that is very limiting.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    4H: Hot, Humid Houston H.O.
    Posts
    3,304

    Low delta-T

    Can anyone document the idea that geothermal equipment removes humidity as well as conventional AC equipment? The thing I suspect is that geo equipment in particular, will use a less-cold coil (i.e. "lower Delta-T") in AC mode than will for example, a Carrier Infinity system. Using a lower Delta-T is one way to get higher EER and SEER -- because those measurements pay no respect to humidity removal. Inferior humidity control is one of the things that I would always suspect of an extra-higher EER number.

    If indeed any system uses lower Delta-T to get that last point or two of EER, they have artificially scored a big advertising number at the expense of compromising humidity removal. In some climates that is OK, in a hot-humid climate that is a very bad trade-off.

    If you could show me some literature with numbers to testify your favorite geo system excels at humidity removal, that would ease my concerns. Bet nobody can<g>.

    I do believe somebody asked me if I even know what a geothermal heat pump is. I do. I would like to ask that person, do you even have an awareness of humidity problems in houses? Do you know the difference between a humidifier and a de-humidifier, and understand why I am concerned about one and not the other?

    Regards -- P.Student


    [Edited by perpetual_student on 03-16-2005 at 06:38 PM]

  10. #36

    Re: What about cooling?

    Originally posted by perpetual_student
    Geo, I re-read your first post and want to approach from a different angle:

    >>I believe it is always better for the environment and energy to use
    >>heat transfer to heat home regardless of the upfront cost.

    Are you only thinking about heating? Are you ignoring cooling? What if anything would you intend to do about humidity removal in a hot-humid climate?

    Still think you should regret saying upfront cost does not affect the end conclusion. Nuclear power plants have always had very low fuel costs, fairly good operating and maintenance (O&M) costs, it's the capital cost which has in the past made it such a high price electricity source. In every case that capital cost must be paid off by the end of the plant life. With both nuclear plants and geothermal heating/cooling, the upfront cost is an item which deserves to be amortized over the life of the system.

    Regards -- P.Student
    I beleive Geoexchange systems always pay for themselves. They love what they do and keep on doing it for years. I have systems installed it the early 1970s and still work as good today as they did then. I have had no trouble with humidity problems. I would run the Evap. fan on a slower speed if I did.

  11. #37

    Re: Low delta-T

    Originally posted by perpetual_student
    Can anyone document the idea that geothermal equipment removes humidity as well as conventional AC equipment? The thing I suspect is that geo equipment in particular, will use a less-cold coil (i.e. "lower Delta-T") in AC mode than will for example, a Carrier Infinity system. Using a lower Delta-T is one way to get higher EER and SEER -- because those measurements pay no respect to humidity removal. Inferior humidity control is one of the things that I would always suspect of an extra-higher EER number.

    If indeed any system uses lower Delta-T to get that last point or two of EER, they have artificially scored a big advertising number at the expense of compromising humidity removal. In some climates that is OK, in a hot-humid climate that is a very bad trade-off.

    If you could show me some literature with numbers to testify your favorite geo system excels at humidity removal, that would ease my concerns. Bet nobody can<g>.

    I do believe somebody asked me if I even know what a geothermal heat pump is. I do. I would like to ask that person, do you even have an awareness of humidity problems in houses? Do you know the difference between a humidifier and a de-humidifier, and understand why I am concerned about one and not the other?

    Regards -- P.Student


    [Edited by perpetual_student on 03-16-2005 at 06:38 PM]
    I have a 32000 Square foot building on a college Campus that has a number of duel compressor units in it. They share a closed geothermo loop field. No problem with humidity they are located in NC. Mabe some one in Ga or FL has problems, If so the units are over sized or they need to change the fan speed to change the delta T for more Humitiy control.

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    165
    Geo, It sounds like you know what you are talking about and are very "On top of things". I guess people are just having a hard time trying to justify the cost of these installations. If they would just install one in their own house and see for themselves they would be sold on it as well.

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    in a house, Appomattox, Va.
    Posts
    3,293
    I think poo richard's almanac had something to say on this a good while back:

    Waste not, want not" or as Moma used to say "turn off the light, you're wasting electricity"

    There's something we can agree on now, and the technology is there to save energy and extend the life of resources. When people won't insulate energy hog houses and make 5 trips a week to the corner store in their explorers, all the technology in the world won't make up for gross waste.
    Col 3:23


    questions asked, answers received, ignorance abated

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